Staying beyond end of tenancy in rental property? how do we manage this...?

rtho782 wrote: »

Well, perhaps LLs (via their LA agents) should not insist on new ASTs if they do not like the implications of them (no requirement for notice). LLs just want everything their way (12m certainty of tenancy, with a 6m break clause for them but not the tenant, and notice like they are on a SPT at the end of the fixed term). As they can't legally do all three they try to pretend there is a moral obligation on the 3rd without any sort of flexibility on their part.

At the end of the day we did try to go onto a periodic tenancy, the LL said the LA had advised them it was bad as "we could hand in notice at any time" so decided not to help.

Therefore I did exactly what I was legally entitled to do and stuck to the terms to the letter.

Why is the tenant expected to go above and beyond their obligations to be nice to the Landlord, who is running a business, when the LL/LA do not?

I agree. Niceness should certainly go both ways. And I try to be flexible, and I would be in favour of increasing tenants' rights. At the same time I don't think it's unreasonable for the LL to not want to go onto a periodic tenancy (there are some good reasons - as previously mentioned).

Sticking to the letter of the AST is fine. However your previous post implied that you kept saying you were going to renew but just didn't sign, when you knew full well a fortnight before the date that you were going to move out. I just think that that wasn't a particularly decent thing to do. It's not going that much "above and beyond" to send a quick email to let them know what your plans are.

That's the thing - letting agents try to convince landlords that with existing tenants, they have the power to demand this income security for a period of X months.

In our case, the landlord wants to avoid re-advertising his property during winter, similar story in that we are buying our first home.

The letting agent gave the whole "security" line. I suggested a periodic tenancy initially on the end of our term 2 days ago, they said this didn't give the landlord any "security" and he wanted a 12 month contract with a 9 month break clause (when we had already been living there for 2 years). They then came back with a two month extension, basically asking us to commit that we'd be out in October. I advised the landlord that the extension was nonsense because at that point, if he wanted to serve us notice, the earliest we would leave under that is in October anyway. All it achieved was the agent getting a renewal fee.

Security of income <<< security of home, but it's difficult as a tenant to approach this and be diplomatic about it.

We ended up into the last two months of our tenancy with nothing having been agreed, thus if the landlord wanted to go through the hassle of getting us out he'd end up in at least Autumn anyway.

Fortunately, he came to realise that he couldn't force us to re-sign anything at this point, couldn't serve us notice to be out any sooner than Autumn etc, and we went onto a periodic contract.

It all felt a little bit like someone was wanting us to either leave now, or commit to not buy for another year and have it all magically fall into place when the sun was shining again. Fortunately I think there was some realisation that this was impractical, especially when you have good, rent-paying tenants.

Petite_Anglaise wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses- it's really good to see the point of views from tenants and landlords.

I do find all this talk of "going to war" and "nuclear option" somewhat amusing.

Yes we need to get out on a specific date imposed by the LA/landlord (who knows) but all we are asking for is some common sense and understanding of our situation.

We're certainly not looking to "wait to be evicted"- we may need an extra week or two to ensure we have the keys to our new place.

Is that too much to ask for from a LA/landlord who we have paid every time, on time without fail, we've looked after the property, reported problems promptly to get them fixed etc?

Once we get confirmation of our completion date we will inform the LA and then give 1 month's notice to leave and of course continue to pay rent until the day we move out. Also, we will have the property professionally cleaned at our expense as we did in a previous rental.

We have never been in a situation where Section 21 notice has been served so it's all quite new territory for us.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
We are going to give 1 month's notice

Firstly I would check that the Section 21 has been served correctly. Evidently a lot of landlords get this wrong, I wouldn't like to make assumptions about how it should be served as it is so easy to get wrong! However I believe that....

If your original fixed term were to end on the 8th of September, for instance (i.e. your original contract started on the 9th of September for 12 month fixed term), then I believe the landlord should have served the Section 21 before the 9th of July, to end at the end on the 8th of September. That is, two full clear rental periods' notice.

If however they did not serve in time, and have served you two calendar months' notice, thus taking you past your original end date, this would not be valid. Instead, they need to serve you another two full rental periods' notice. Thus, if they actually served you Section 21 on say the 20th of July to give two months' notice until the 19th of September, it would not be valid. Between 9th of September and 19th of September, you would be entering onto a periodic tenancy, thus new terms would apply. They would instead only be able to serve a section 21 that begins on the 9th of September, hence two full rental periods' notice would be 8th of November.

With a bit of luck they've not been savvy enough to do it properly!

If not, you're actually under no legal obligation to leave on that date. It's not legally binding. If you stay beyond this, and pay further rent which is accepted, then all they can then do is apply to the courts for eviction which will take months. It's awkward to be that person, but if all you need is a couple of weeks it's what you can do. But I would be mindful that if you do this, then you too are bound by the terms of the periodic tenancy that you'll be in; that is, you need to give a full rental period's notice. Thus, you will end up paying rent for a full month's worth that you may not need (but the overlap may be desirable).

Similarly, you must be sure you serve your notice appropriately. That is, at least one full rental period ahead of time to end on the last day of the rolling term.

So continuing my example - if you stayed past those September dates, but knew you would be out by the 28th or something, you must serve notice before the 9th of September to end on the 8th of October.

I hope this helps.