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Pets, leaseholders and 'unreasonably' withholding consent
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pmlindyloo wrote: »OP, I think you are missing the point.
You may be entirely right and the landlord is being unreasonable in refusing to let you have a cat.
However, it really doesn't make any difference.
You could 'win' and the landlord is forced to let you keep a cat but in the end he will 'win' because he will issue you with a Section 21 and get you out eventually. He does not have to provide any reasonto do this.
Do you want to stay?
Your choice.
I'm not trying to 'win', I'm merely wanting to know where I stand on something I thought I was allowed to request. Had the flat said from the start "no pets" I would have accepted it and gone about my business. What I take offense to is being allowed to request permission, only to have the door slammed in my face without any explanation, even though the contract states that he can't say no without a reasonable explanation.
Also, while I appriciate people posting to help clarify the decision, I can't understand why you're making me seem like the unreasonable party in this situation for simply enquiring about something that's not been properly explained or followed by someone else.0 -
Eton_Rifle wrote: »I hope I'm not making you feel challenged; I apologise if this is the case.
I'm a tenant with pets myself so appreciate your situation but am pessimistic when I know the odds are stacked against me.
I'm also a landlord who allows pets and has to deal with the aftermath so I understand the reluctance of your landlord.
It's not that, I think I was just hoping for some more hard facts / assistance rather than the 'deal with it' angle some people have suggested. Which is something I can totally understand and deal with, but if that was the case I wouldn't have bothered posting on the forum in the first place. If I knew I was going to just be told suck it up, I'd might not have bothered asking to begin with, as what assistance is that exactly other than pointing out the painstakingly obvious.
Here's what I know:
It's illigal to have a flat ban on pets.
Here's what I don't know:
- If the landlord says no (fair play), doesn't he have to justify his decision for it to be seen as reasonable? Surely not justifying it is in itself not reasonable.
- if the only reason is a cleaning matter, does the reason become unreasonable the moment I agree to pay for damages/cleaning once I move out.0 -
No experience of letting to tenants with cats(s), because there is no way I would but I do have experience of owning one and here are some good reasons that I would hope I wouldn't have to explain.
They smell. The litter tray (be responsible, don't let them go in other peoples gardens) is not always hit and you do end up with urine (and worse sometimes) on the floor. Cat urine is impossible to get out of carpets, it can dissolve plaster if it comes into contact with it for long enough.
They moult like nothing else and even the best "pet" vacuum cleaners cannot get all the hairs back up so not good for subsequent tenants allergy or not.
They scratch things. Do you really want to pay to replace all the carpets, the sofa, reseal the windows, sand and paint the doors etc etc?
They poo in the garden even if you DO have a litter tray, in a flat you often share the garden, not good for neighbourly relations.
And more! Sorry to say even the best behaved cat in the world would not be allowed in any flat I rent out.0 -
JamesWright1987 wrote: »
- If the landlord says no (fair play), doesn't he have to justify his decision for it to be seen as reasonable? Surely not justifying it is in itself not reasonable.
- if the only reason is a cleaning matter, does the reason become unreasonable the moment I agree to pay for damages/cleaning once I move out.
Ok. I will answer your questions*
The landlord has to justify his decision and cannot be unreasonable.
If the reason is cleaning and you agree to pay then it may become unreasonable.
If the landlord does not give you reasonable justification then you can get whatever pet you want and there is nothing he can do about it.
Is that what you wanted to hear?
* Note that i have no actual legal knowledge about this and so answers should not be relied upon.0 -
JamesWright1987 wrote: »I'm not trying to 'win', I'm merely wanting to know where I stand on something I thought I was allowed to request. Had the flat said from the start "no pets" I would have accepted it and gone about my business. What I take offense to is being allowed to request permission, only to have the door slammed in my face without any explanation, even though the contract states that he can't say no without a reasonable explanation.
Also, while I appriciate people posting to help clarify the decision, I can't understand why you're making me seem like the unreasonable party in this situation for simply enquiring about something that's not been properly explained or followed by someone else.
Did you read the link that I gave you in post 8?
This is what it says:
The OFT considers any blanket ban on keeping pets in a property unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Therefore landlords should not include a ‘No Pets’ clause in their tenancy agreements anyway.
So your landlord has an unfair clause in his contract.
Print off the article and show him.
Buy a cat.
Your landlord may then issue you with Section 21 which will give you notice of his intention to gain possession at the end of the tenancy (in fact he may have issued you one already - check your paperwork as some LLs issue these at the beginning of the tenancy.) He does not have to give any reason to do this. He can just do it and get you out.
No one is being unsympathetic to your predicament
You are in the right (according to the OFT) but in the end your LL has the upper hand.
Unfair, maybe. All the ranting and raving in the world isn't going to change the facts, I'm sorry to say.
You're not being unreasonable in how you feel about the situation but with all due respect, you are not accepting the facts and 'moving on'.0 -
JamesWright1987 wrote: »It's not that, I think I was just hoping for some more hard facts / assistance rather than the 'deal with it' angle some people have suggested. Which is something I can totally understand and deal with, but if that was the case I wouldn't have bothered posting on the forum in the first place. If I knew I was going to just be told suck it up, I'd might not have bothered asking to begin with, as what assistance is that exactly other than pointing out the painstakingly obvious.
Here's what I know:
It's illigal to have a flat ban on pets.
Here's what I don't know:
- If the landlord says no (fair play), doesn't he have to justify his decision for it to be seen as reasonable? Surely not justifying it is in itself not reasonable.
- if the only reason is a cleaning matter, does the reason become unreasonable the moment I agree to pay for damages/cleaning once I move out.
Assume that he says yes, but only if 100% of the cleaning is covered, and this returns the house to the current cat free state.
Have you got any idea of the work required?
Its not just a quick clean of the carpet to get rid of the hair...
Cat Allergies are caused by a protein, that dries, becomes airborne and sticks to any surface (walls floors and ceilings).
To remove it you need to spay a denaturing spray on every hard surface and clean it off. This can and will damage paint and will take a while.
So you’re looking at a bill for a full deep clean of carpets, walls floors, ceilings, inside cupboards, window frames and panes, a possible repaint, not to mention lost rent while all this goes on (it can’t happen till you’re gone).
All this I would want to be covered by an increased deposit to cover the whole amount so £5k+.
If you say no, he could rightly say that the risk of him being financially worse off is a reasonable ground to say no. (he would be worse off if the next tenant suffers from a severe cat allergy and thus can’t move in).0 -
pmlindyloo wrote: »Did you read the link that I gave you in post 8?
This is what it says:
The OFT considers any blanket ban on keeping pets in a property unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Therefore landlords should not include a ‘No Pets’ clause in their tenancy agreements anyway.
So your landlord has an unfair clause in his contract.
Print off the article and show him.
Buy a cat.
Your landlord may then issue you with Section 21 which will give you notice of his intention to gain possession at the end of the tenancy (in fact he may have issued you one already - check your paperwork as some LLs issue these at the beginning of the tenancy.) He does not have to give any reason to do this. he can jsut do it and get you out.
No one is being unsympathetic to your predicament You are in the right (according to the OFT) but in the end your LL has the upper hand.
Unfair, maybe. All the ranting and raving in the world isn't going to change the facts, I'm sorry to say.
You're not being unreasonable in how you feel about the situation but with all due respect, you are not accepting the facts and 'moving on'.
its not a blanket ban, if you asked for a fish he might say yes, so its not an unfair term as it gives scope for him to say yes.0 -
martinsurrey wrote: »its not a blanket ban, if you asked for a fish he might say yes, so its not an unfair term as it gives scope for him to say yes.
Picky, but I concede
The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter one way or another.
The OP could argue until he is 'blue in the face' that the LL is being unreasonable, but the outcome may still be 'bye bye' OP even if the LL backs down and allows a cat until he can get them out.
I am beginning to wonder what outcome the OP wants to achieve.0 -
You can get quite lifelike robot pets these days .... and they don't die if you get too busy to remember to feed them.
Also - keep an eye out of the window for a neighbour's cat. Tempt it over and you can stroke a real one every time you see it - for FREE!0 -
I think the LL is being entirely reasonable. His own lease probably states no cats and dogs. As the above poster mentioned, the LL might allow a goldfish instead as they're not as much a nuisance.
I once lived in a flat where previous owners had had a cat. No matter how many times the carpet was cleaned (in a kind of utility room bit) you could still smell the blasted cat. As I was renting I couldn't replace the carpet and the LL didn't want to so I didn't stay long.
I'd also be careful about annoying the LL too much. He's said no twice already. I'd just drop the cat thing and be a good tenant, you never know when you'll need a boiler fixing in the middle of winter etc.0
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