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death in family tennant in common
Comments
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there is no mortagage
yes it was in both names - I only paid the repayment part. mum had endowments
i did not live in the property...
If it was fairly clear from the mortgage that there were 2 parts and you paid 18% then that might be enough documentation(if you still have it) to keep HMRC happy on the CGT side of things.0 -
There is no need to be rude. According to my solicitor you DO need it. I prefer her opinion to an unknown poster here.getmore4less wrote: »When will it sink in you don't need probate if there is a surviving legal owners?
opening line of the OP0 -
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]When the property sells you will have a CGT liability calculated roughly as follows.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Sale Price £280,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]less:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Purchase Price £76,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Purchase costs say £500[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Sale costs say £4,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Net Capital Gain £199,500[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Your 18% £35,910[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Less your £11,700 annual allowance[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tax at either 18% or 28% on £24,210[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So actual tax to pay of £4,357 to £6,779[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Obviously the actual tax will depend on all of the exact figures going into the calculation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If the property sells by 5/4/2019 then I think you have until Jan 2020 to submit an online return and pay the tax.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If you transfer your 18% to your brother this transfer will trigger exactly the same calculation except open market value will be substituted for whatever you charge your brother.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If your additional share of 41% is transferred to you by your mother's estate then CGT will only be triggered when you sell the 59% but you may have additional CGT to pay if the house sells for more than £280,000 and you continue not to live there.[/FONT]0 -
Yorkshireman99 wrote: »There is no need to be rude. According to my solicitor you DO need it. I prefer her opinion to an unknown poster here.
Including the official from the land registry that process the legal titles?0 -
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That's true but surely that is not a complete answer.[/FONT]getmore4less wrote: »When will it sink in you don't need probate if there is a surviving legal owners?
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]My understanding is that the surviving joint owner, even if held as tenants in common, can transfer the legal interest in to their own name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The OP is the surviving joint owner and could, if they so wished, transfer the 82% legal interest they don't own into their own name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But I am not sure how that would help the OP in this situation. If they did that, then they would be the sole legal owner but hold it in trust for themselves and brother in the proportions 59% OP and 41% brother.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That is probably not what the OP wants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if the 100% legal interest was transferred to them, I understand they cannot sell that legal interest without introducing another party to the trust.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I would of thought it is only confusing a straight forward question.[/FONT]0 -
Exactly! Regular posters somerimes forget that newcomers may have little or no knowledge of the topic and could easily be mislead. The law is seldom as clear cut as some believe as in this case. Any of us can fall into the trap of being too brief rather than accurate.[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That's true but surely that is not a complete answer.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]My understanding is that the surviving joint owner, even if held as tenants in common, can transfer the legal interest in to their own name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The OP is the surviving joint owner and could, if they so wished, transfer the 82% legal interest they don't own into their own name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But I am not sure how that would help the OP in this situation. If they did that, then they would be the sole legal owner but hold it in trust for themselves and brother in the proportions 59% OP and 41% brother.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That is probably not what the OP wants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if the 100% legal interest was transferred to them, I understand they cannot sell that legal interest without introducing another party to the trust.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I would of thought it is only confusing a straight forward question.[/FONT]0 -
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That's true but surely that is not a complete answer.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]My understanding is that the surviving joint owner, even if held as tenants in common, can transfer the legal interest in to their own name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The OP is the surviving joint owner and could, if they so wished, transfer the 82% legal interest they don't own into their own name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But I am not sure how that would help the OP in this situation. If they did that, then they would be the sole legal owner but hold it in trust for themselves and brother in the proportions 59% OP and 41% brother.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That is probably not what the OP wants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if the 100% legal interest was transferred to them, I understand they cannot sell that legal interest without introducing another party to the trust.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I would of thought it is only confusing a straight forward question.[/FONT]
The legal ownership is a WHOLE. It can't be split into 18% and 82% for example. But you can do that with the beneficial ownership for each joint owner/tenant in common for example.
So IF there are two joint registered owners and one of them dies the WHOLE legal ownership passes to the surviving one. They don't need probate to deal with the legal ownership. And they don't transfer it to themselves.
When dealing with the property they need in law to account for the beneficial ownerships and % shares BUT they can still deal with it.
The form A restriction restricts the sole surviving owner and alerts others to a trust for example but providing they appoint someone to act with them they can still deal with the property.
Easiest way I have found to explain the difference between legal and beneficial ownership in this context and as simply as possible is
The legal ownership is of the land and building, which makes it a property. You can't physically split the land, bricks & mortar etc 18/82 so you always deal with it as a WHOLE
The beneficial ownership is the value of the land and building etc. Put that in the context of £s and pence and you can split it e.g £18,000 and £82,000
Hope that helps although not entirely what the OP was looking for advice on“Official Company Representative
I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"0 -
Land_Registry wrote: »The legal ownership is a WHOLE. It can't be split into 18% and 82% for example. But you can do that with the beneficial ownership for each joint owner/tenant in common for example.
So IF there are two joint registered owners and one of them dies the WHOLE legal ownership passes to the surviving one. They don't need probate to deal with the legal ownership. And they don't transfer it to themselves.
When dealing with the property they need in law to account for the beneficial ownerships and % shares BUT they can still deal with it.
The form A restriction restricts the sole surviving owner and alerts others to a trust for example but providing they appoint someone to act with them they can still deal with the property.
Easiest way I have found to explain the difference between legal and beneficial ownership in this context and as simply as possible is
The legal ownership is of the land and building, which makes it a property. You can't physically split the land, bricks & mortar etc 18/82 so you always deal with it as a WHOLE
The beneficial ownership is the value of the land and building etc. Put that in the context of £s and pence and you can split it e.g £18,000 and £82,000
Hope that helps although not entirely what the OP was looking for advice on
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thank you for clarifying that. So just to confirm in the OP's case:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1 The legal interest is now owned by them from the date of death even though if they downloaded the title today it would list two owners, OP and mother?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2 The mother's estate does not therefore have any legal ownership?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]3 The OP cannot sell that legal interest unless they appoint someone with them. How would that work in the OP's case? Is probate needed to sell the property or, for example can brother be the someone else?[/FONT]0 -
3. It can be anyone.0
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I have added a 4th question:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1 The legal interest is now owned by them from the date of death even though if they downloaded the title today it would list two owners, OP and mother?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2 The mother's estate does not therefore have any legal ownership?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]3 The OP cannot sell that legal interest unless they appoint someone with them. How would that work in the OP's case? Is probate needed to sell the property or, for example can brother be the someone else?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]4 What is the current beneficial ownership? Is it OP 18% mother's estate 82% or OP 59% brother 41%? That will be of interest to the OP as there will be a disposal of the OP's interest which needs reporting for CGT.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If the answer to No 3 is 'anyone' who is it likely to be? The brother? Or could it be the mother's estate?
[/FONT]0
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