Disciplinary Hearing

mymatebob

bj141 wrote: »

They have 2 very vague statements from witnesses and I have one very clear statement from a witness. The list is very lengthy for gross misconduct but included is serious insubordination and disobedience of management instruction. My manager has therefore lied on his statement and has got one person to cooberate with him to reflect these 2 things.

Is your witness one of the manager's witnesses?
In what way has the manager lied?

CFC

Best practice would be for a different manager to undertake the hearing but this is not always practical, as it depends on the size of the company.

You do not have a right to request a HR rep be present. The note taker is the second company representative; in some companies this will be a HR person, in others it will be another manager.

Make sure that the notes you sign at the end of the meeting fully reflect what was said in the meeting. Do not sign them if you do not believe they are an accurate record. Request that they are altered to reflect the conversation.

If you are unhappy with the results of the hearing, you do have a right to appeal. This should be explained to you when the outcome is given. If you believe that the hearing manager cannot remain neutral you may raise this in the hearing as a concern and of course you would bring it up in your appeal if the outcome was unfavourable.

Could you tell us more? What did the manager say happened, and what do you think happened?

I find it a trifle hard to believe that the only interaction between you (and with no previous history of arguing with your manager) was that you simply said in a calm manner
'Why do you talk to me like that in front of other people, I find it rude' and your manager then immediately hit the roof and threatened to suspend you. Even for a very short tempered manager, that's a completely over the top reaction.

floss2

CFC wrote: »

......
Make sure that the notes you sign at the end of the meeting fully reflect what was said in the meeting. Do not sign them if you do not believe they are an accurate record. Request that they are altered to reflect the conversation. And request a copy for your records

.......

Could you tell us more? What did the manager say happened, and what do you think happened? Can you get any one else to be a witness for you? Can anyone else shed any more light on the point of disobediance of a management instruction?

I find it a trifle hard to believe that the only interaction between you (and with no previous history of arguing with your manager) was that you simply said in a calm manner
'Why do you talk to me like that in front of other people, I find it rude' and your manager then immediately hit the roof and threatened to suspend you. Even for a very short tempered manager, that's a completely over the top reaction.You will have to be totally honest about all previous dealings with your manager in the hearing - if there is anyone who was a witness to the exact words this will help you

How long have you worked for this comapny, and this manager in particular? Have you worked for any other staff in the company who can give a character statement for you?

therealdessie

If it makes you feel better I'll relay to you some things that happened to me many years ago when I worked for a well known recruitment company (*ahem*). I had a run-in with my line manager after she had made some remarks I took exception to, around Muslims and gays (I'm gay but not a Muslim); which culminated in her slamming a stack of papers on my desk and shouting an order at me before storming into her office for a sulk and leaving me red as a beetroot in front of my team and many others - I had done nothing to provoke things other than putting in a complaint about her remarks.

I took her through the grievance procedure, and got nowhere. The HR staff were less than helpful, as it later transpired that she (my manager) was good friends with the HR manager, so in hindsight I wouldn't have stood a chance anyway. I went through the appeals process, no luck there either. I complained all the way up the ladder to the CEO (dog with a bone, me) and got nowhere.

The reason I got nowhere? Well, people in the office who had seen this happen divided into two groups: three people who were friends of the manager and heard only the bad things I had apparently said (I told her I wanted to see her in her manager's office in half an hour), and none of what she said despite sitting a desk behind and the manager and I being at my desk; and people who were happy to hell me they'd heard it all but didn't want to go on record for fear of recrimination.

When you fight these things, you fight alone: remember that. And that's why it's important to know when to back down, and when to get everything in writing. As it transpired I left the company and then started legal proceedings. ACAS were involved at a mediation and I managed to get the manager disciplined and sent on an awareness course, which embarrassed her no end - exactly what she needed. Since then two Muslim members of staff have come forward with their own complaints.

So, there is sometimes a light at the end of the tunnel, it can be hard to find, but if you stick to your guns and do everything by the book you will eventually see some justice.

Horace

Normally you would meet with your rep a couple of days before the meeting, but I do know from experience that it also isnt unusual to meet your rep until the actual day.

One thing that they dont appear to have told you and I am surprised your union rep hasnt mentioned it, you can ask for the witnesses to be called and you and/or your rep can question them. The other side also have the right to question witnesses. If HR refuse permission for witnesses to be called the union rep has the right to ask that the meeting be postponed until such a time as the witnesses are available.

As it is a disciplinary then I would have thought that HR are obliged to be there because really they would be the people carrying out the investigation - ask that they be there even if it is oversee the proceedings to ensure there is no bias by the manager concerned.

HTH and good luck

CFC

Horace wrote: »

Normally you would meet with your rep a couple of days before the meeting, but I do know from experience that it also isnt unusual to meet your rep until the actual day.

One thing that they dont appear to have told you and I am surprised your union rep hasnt mentioned it, you can ask for the witnesses to be called and you and/or your rep can question them. The other side also have the right to question witnesses. If HR refuse permission for witnesses to be called the union rep has the right to ask that the meeting be postponed until such a time as the witnesses are available.

As it is a disciplinary then I would have thought that HR are obliged to be there because really they would be the people carrying out the investigation - ask that they be there even if it is oversee the proceedings to ensure there is no bias by the manager concerned.

HTH and good luck

I have to say I have never been involved in a disciplinary where a witness has been questioned in a disciplinary hearing, and I am not sure that it is correct to say that there is a right to 'call a witness'. The usual way of procedure is to gain witness statements, if the person is willing to allow their statement to be used and seen by the person invited to disciplinary then it can be used; if not, then it cannot. The person who is the subject of the disciplinary can also request witness statements from anyone who they believe the manager should talk to; and will of course offer their opinion of any witness statements offered by the manager which they do not agree with.

This is not a court of law in any way shape or form and neither does there have to be a question of 'beyond reasonable doubt.'

HR are not generally the people carrying out the investigation or holding the hearing, except in some companies where managers aren't trusted to get the procedure right. HR is there as a resource for the hearing manager, sometimes they will attend as notetakers but often have no involvement apart from discussion with the manager and guidance as to procedure and outcome if necessary. An employee has no right to request that the hearing manager or the notetaker is a part of the Human Resources department.

An employee does have the right to be accompanied either by a colleague or a member of a union (union rep) and some employers will allow certain other categories which are not statory eg other outside persons.

whowell

Hi, I hope someone can help me, i am currently off work sick and have been for 6 weeks now (with stress from work ) i while i have been off i were to attend a discaplinary hearing regarding my employment as i have to pass exams at work and have failed one 3 times which is a sackable offence (well it depends if your face fits or not) anyway my last sick note ran out on the 27th may 2008 and yesterday i received a letter from work saying that a hearing has been held in my absence and i have been sacked !!! i was never told about the hearing (which was held on the 30th May, my work received my latest sick note yesterday which was dated by my doctor to run from 27th May (so as one ended, another began) i have worked for the company 2 1/2 years and would like to know can they sack me if i have put sick notes in for a sickness that is work related ??
thanks

CFC

Yes they can, as you have failed your exams, being sick is nothing to do with it.

If you never received the letter inviting you to the disciplinary and you wanted to attend you should immediately appeal against the outcome and tell your employers you never received the invitation letter.