0844 calls to doctors

dadsma

Robothell wrote: »

it would appear that the GP practices actually do make some money out of the 084 numbers......

Here is an extract from an NEG leaflet - I believe from 2006/7

"What is Surgery Line?

Surgery Line is a cost-effective way for forward looking surgeries to improve the service that they offer to patients, reduce stress levels for staff and self-fund a state of the art phone system,” explains NEG’s Managing Director Dean Rayment. “We now have over 1,400 surgeries who have already switched to Surgery Line; by doing so, they have improved the service that they offer patients and relieved the pressure on busy staff.”

You and your staff benefit

When a surgery switches to an 0844 number, NEG will install and maintain the most efficient communications system on the market. You specify exactly what equipment you want to receive (from handsets to switchboards) for no extra charge. With your own 084 number, instead of BT making all the money from your call, you keep a small amount of money per call to pay for the new equipment you receive to improve your patients’ experience.

How your patients benefit

Patients benefit by having their calls answered more quickly. The engaged tone becomes rare, even at peak times, because you are able to handle incoming calls more efficiently whilst patient calls are spread out during the day. The average call to your surgery will be 2 1⁄2 minuteslong. This costs 10.5p using an 0844 number and would cost 12.4p if the caller was on the standard BT tariff.

“Come and see for yourself. Speak to anyone who has had the system installed to back up what NEG are saying. I would recommend that you should give Surgery Line the once over. It costs nothing to look and ends up costing nothing to have. NEG know what you need and will deliver their promises.” Practice Manager Kingshurst Surgery." "

36square

culchied wrote: »

Your ignorance is breathtaking.

Why don't we pay them a pittance then, continue to let them wrack up huge debts for all their year's study at university and let them come out with a salary that amounts to an average graduate's when their debts are factored in. When there's a shortage of doctors as a consequence of that, we'll see how ignorant you choose to be then.

It's simply immoral to pay GPs more than we need do seeing as most of the people who pay the taxes to support earn considerably less. How long they spend at university is neither here nor there. If GPs think they're not being paid enough they could try private practice and see how many people are willing to pay fees that are large enough to provide them with an equivalent income. We'll know they'repaid too little when universities can't fill their medical places.
Paying GPs more seems to have encouraged them to do less which is not altogether surprising seing as they need more spare time to enjoy their income. GP's effectively work normal office hours which means they are just very well paid civil servants.
Finally if you pay doctors too much you're liable to attract people who are just in it for a cushy living as well as those who have a genuine vocation.
Linking back to the thread, 0844 numbers is a symptom of that as it suggests some GPs are greedy. If GP's decided to charge premium rates (ie up to £1 per minute) would you think they deserve every penny they got out of it? Or put it another way, how much do we need to bribe them to stop using 0844 numbers.

purt

36square wrote: »

It's simply immoral to pay GPs more than we need do seeing as most of the people who pay the taxes to support earn considerably less. How long they spend at university is neither here nor there. If GPs think they're not being paid enough they could try private practice and see how many people are willing to pay fees that are large enough to provide them with an equivalent income. We'll know they'repaid too little when universities can't fill their medical places.
Paying GPs more seems to have encouraged them to do less which is not altogether surprising seing as they need more spare time to enjoy their income. GP's effectively work normal office hours which means they are just very well paid civil servants.

Finally if you pay doctors too much you're liable to attract people who are just in it for a cushy living as well as those who have a genuine vocation.
Linking back to the thread, 0844 numbers is a symptom of that as it suggests some GPs are greedy. If GP's decided to charge premium rates (ie up to £1 per minute) would you think they deserve every penny they got out of it? Or put it another way, how much do we need to bribe them to stop using 0844 numbers.

As I said, your ignorance is breathtaking. For a start, in Northern Ireland the QUB Medical School is heavily oversubscribed and students who obtain straight As in their A Levels frequently don't get a place.

How long they spend at university is vital. It takes at least five years training to become qualified as a trainee doctor. Make it less and you get a doctor with poorer training. Make it more and they wrack up huge debts. Why would anyone want to enter a profession that takes years of training only to be saddled with massive debts and a modest salary to cover them?

blueberrypie

culchied wrote: »

Why would anyone want to enter a profession that takes years of training only to be saddled with massive debts and a modest salary to cover them?

The average newly-qualified doctor owes about £20,000. Yes, that's a pretty big student debt. But the average GP salary is about £100,000 - hardly a "modest salary".

However regardless of any of that, in a country where medical care is supposed to be free at the point-of-treatment, it is not justifiable for GPs or any other doctor to be making money from patients by using revenue-making telephone numbers. Even the Department of Health says so.

36square

culchied wrote: »

As I said, your ignorance is breathtaking. For a start, in Northern Ireland the QUB Medical School is heavily oversubscribed and students who obtain straight As in their A Levels frequently don't get a place.

Make it more and they wrack up huge debts. Why would anyone want to enter a profession that takes years of training only to be saddled with massive debts and a modest salary to cover them?

You really are living up to your moniker.

1. Perhaps QUB's medical faculty is oversubscribed with people keen to learn a trade that virtually guarantees they will be comfortably off until they die.

2. That being the case why shouldn't they meet the cost of their own training with very cheap loans. You've obviously got a great terror of debt.

3. Do you think it is right for GPs to augment their already substantial incomes by forcing patients to use an 0844 number which, according to blueberrypie, is not eligible for free calls with BT or any other telephone provider?

That is the point of this thread which I initiated. The fact that GPs are so well remunerated simply makes the practice all the more offensive.

Robothell

dadsma wrote: »

Here is an extract from an NEG leaflet - I believe from 2006/7

"What is Surgery Line?

Surgery Line is a cost-effective way for forward looking surgeries to improve the service that they offer to patients, reduce stress levels for staff and self-fund a state of the art phone system,” explains NEG’s Managing Director Dean Rayment. “We now have over 1,400 surgeries who have already switched to Surgery Line; by doing so, they have improved the service that they offer patients and relieved the pressure on busy staff.”

You and your staff benefit

When a surgery switches to an 0844 number, NEG will install and maintain the most efficient communications system on the market. You specify exactly what equipment you want to receive (from handsets to switchboards) for no extra charge. With your own 084 number, instead of BT making all the money from your call, you keep a small amount of money per call to pay for the new equipment you receive to improve your patients’ experience.

How your patients benefit

Patients benefit by having their calls answered more quickly. The engaged tone becomes rare, even at peak times, because you are able to handle incoming calls more efficiently whilst patient calls are spread out during the day. The average call to your surgery will be 2 1⁄2 minuteslong. This costs 10.5p using an 0844 number and would cost 12.4p if the caller was on the standard BT tariff.

“Come and see for yourself. Speak to anyone who has had the system installed to back up what NEG are saying. I would recommend that you should give Surgery Line the once over. It costs nothing to look and ends up costing nothing to have. NEG know what you need and will deliver their promises.” Practice Manager Kingshurst Surgery." "

Are you quoting me to agree with me? It looks like the tone of your message is disagreeing with me but the words say something else.

Robothell

I think that I need to chip in here as I think there are a few uninformed opinions kicking around. To open the floodgates, may I first point out that I graduated in Medicine from QUB in 2002 and have been working inside hospital medicine for the last 7 years. I am aware that MSE forum rules forbid me from declaring this and then giving medical advice but this is obviously not what I intend to do.

36square wrote: »

You really are living up to your moniker.

1. Perhaps QUB's medical faculty is oversubscribed with people keen to learn a trade that virtually guarantees they will be comfortably off until they die.

All medical schools are oversubscribed because, as Medicine is a Profession, numbers are strictly controlled. QUB is particularly oversubscribed because it is one of the best Med schools in the UK.

Since the introduction of MMC the perceived "security" of a doctor's job has gone. There was widespread unemployment of doctors with many having to go abroad to find work - we, the taxpayers, paid for their training up to this point but the governent decided to ignore the views of doctors and plough ahead with an ill-advised scheme that has left the health service reeling. Several of my friends have left medicine to pursue other careers.

2. That being the case why shouldn't they meet the cost of their own training with very cheap loans. You've obviously got a great terror of debt.

Are you so disconnected that you still believe that the taxpayer pays for university fees? ALL students are now self-funding through loans except for those in extreme hardship or who are lucky nough to gain a scholarship. I personally took out several cheap loans, one not-so-cheap loan and worked on weekends to pay for my education. I qualified with £22,000 of debt and am still paying it off - indeed this was the reason I've been using MSE for years. Will be debt free in April 2010.

When I started as a JHO I worked 110 hours a week. My take home salary for this was £2000 a month. That's a flat rate of about £4.50 an hour if you take a four month week and don't take into consideration that those hours included a 36 hour shift from 8am one day to 8pm the next. Having said that, because of European Health and Safety legislation (EWTD) those hours have fallen for the majority of doctors.

3. Do you think it is right for GPs to augment their already substantial incomes by forcing patients to use an 0844 number which, according to blueberrypie, is not eligible for free calls with BT or any other telephone provider?

GPs have to go through several years of training prior to becoming GPs. In other threads you seem to be of the opinion that medical students graduate and become GPs the following day. GPs' salaries are on a nationally agreed payscale and I would imagine that all the GPs on the high earner lists are very senior doctors who may well be earning because of private practice and other initiatives.

In addition, I should point out that many GP Practices are actually essentially private businesses that are "subcontracted" by the NHS. This means that they are run as a business. I can't fault a GP practice for taking an 0845/0844/0870 number in these instances but I do disagee with the idea in principle and have responded to the consultation document asking for the government to act to make GP numbers either 0300 or 0800 numbers. The decision to switch to 0845 numbers (I'm told) is made by Practice Managers (who are generally not doctors) looking to balance the books.

That is the point of this thread which I initiated. The fact that GPs are so well remunerated simply makes the practice all the more offensive.

36square - you make the point that perhaps GPs should go into private practice and see if people will pay for their care to the tune of thir existing salary. I would like to point out that was exactly what happened with dentists many years ago and I believe you'll see the effects under several threads on this forum. Search for "NHS Dentist" and see for yourself. Of course people will pay - your suggestion is a shortcut to the American style of insurance driven healthcare.

amber9876 - with regards the magazines, toys etc. It will no doubt surprise you but the reason most of these have been removed in surgeries is because they've been used as projectiles against the staff, they are an infection control risk as they are impossible to clean and (specifically the toys) are a potential source of litigation if an unsupervised child hurts themselves on them.

harry4444 - I imagine your MRI was done through the Mitre MRI service which is actually a registered charity and not *strictly* part of the NHS. You can call MPH switchboard and ask to be put through to avoid this charge.

Folks, I think it's probably worthwhile posting this link again as it contains the vast majority of GP geographical numbers, although admittedly there is a bit of a creep of the other kind.

36square

Robothell
It's good to have some sort of insider's view even if you're not actually a GP.
I'd never heard of doctors being unemployed before but I'll take your word for it. Perhaps if this were better known there'd be fewer people fighting to get into medical training. As for people leaving medicine, they can't be forced to stay but they're still liable for their loans.
In response to culchied, I meant to point out that since the vast majority of doctors are maintained by taxpayers throughout their careers, it's surely not too much to ask them to pay for their training.
I know perfectly well that GPs do not emerge fully-formed from universities. Like you, they all had to do penance as junior hospital doctors for a few years first but maybe not any more.
It's at least a couple of years now that I first read in the BT that NI GPs had an average income of nearly £100,000pa.
I think it's fair to assume that most full-time GPs are earning that by now. There are very few people in the private sector in NI who would earn that much, I'd be surprised if there were more than 1,000.
It's wrong to suggest that GP practices are "essentially private businesses" since they only have one customer - the NHS. The self-employed/partnership arrangement is just a figleaf so that they can pretend they're professionals like accountants and architects rather than employees.
Getting back to the thread, the question is whether they're justified in using 0844 numbers as a source of revenue for their own benefit rather than the NHS as a whole. Or maybe the practice managers are pocketing it all!
I accept the possibility that the practices don't actually receive cash payments but instead get supplied with 'free' telecoms equipment. Even then, there is an indirect gain since they don't have to invest the money themselves and might be able to save on staff costs as a result.
I wish an 0844 GP would post their views here but then they have little need to use a site like this!

Silent_Calls_Victim

36square wrote: »

... I wish an 0844 GP would post their views here but then they have little need to use a site like this!

Members may be interested to hear the defence of the practice offered by a 0844 GP and Deputy Chairman of the BMA GPC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7785000/7785011.stm.

Robothell

I was hoping not to get dragged into multiple posts here but I feel that my point is just beyond your reach.

36square wrote: »

Robothell
It's good to have some sort of insider's view even if you're not actually a GP.
I'd never heard of doctors being unemployed before but I'll take your word for it.

Widely publicised at the time and, indeed, is still ongoing. It's strange that people only pay attention to news that portrays the medical profession in a poor light!
Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4 and several more on the BMA website.

Perhaps if this were better known there'd be fewer people fighting to get into medical training.

There are fewer people applying.

As for people leaving medicine, they can't be forced to stay but they're still liable for their loans.

Yes they are. Not the taxpayer. I fail to see your point with this.

In response to culchied, I meant to point out that since the vast majority of doctors are maintained by taxpayers throughout their careers, it's surely not too much to ask them to pay for their training.

Doctors in training provide an invaluable service to the NHS during their training. If you have ever actually looked inside a hospital you would be aware that the junior doctors are the ones who admit, review, organise investigations, collate results and organise discharges. Consultants deal in overview, junior doctors deal in detail. The taxpayer pays for their training but gets a hell of a lot back in return.

I know perfectly well that GPs do not emerge fully-formed from universities. Like you, they all had to do penance as junior hospital doctors for a few years first but maybe not any more.

These two sentances contradict each other. GP trainees spend a number of years in hospital and then a number of years in GP practices as GP Registrars before becoming GPs. This was, and still is, the only way to become a GP.

It's at least a couple of years now that I first read in the BT that NI GPs had an average income of nearly £100,000pa.

That is correct. After five years of undergrad training (gaining three degrees), minimum of six years as a trainee (sitting several postgraduate diplomas and professional exams - all self funded) and a hell of a lot of hours to the service of the general public (who, incidentally are now statistically more likely to seek litigation over a falsely perceived medical error than actually say "thank you") they reach that salary. And then pay out £420 a year to the GMC, several hundred pounds a year to the Royal College of GPs to stay affiliated, thousands of pounds for professional indemnity (see point about litigation above) and a few hundred quid to the BMA. Not to mention the overheads of staff wages, electricity, public liability insurance etc, etc, etc.

I'm not trying to say that GPs are actually poor - they are paid a good wage in proportion to the amount of work they do. Doctors salaries are set by a government body called the DDRB (Doctors and Dentists Review Board) which is made up of non-medics. There are more things to take into account than just gross annual salary.

I think it's fair to assume that most full-time GPs are earning that by now. There are very few people in the private sector in NI who would earn that much, I'd be surprised if there were more than 1,000.

I think that's significantly underestimating the salaries in NI. I think you would be very surprised indeed. I know several private businessmen and farmers that would have net earnings well in excess of that. People have this impression that doctors are paid a huge salary when it is not actually the case. Doctors are actually the lowest paid professional graduates in the UK on average.

It's wrong to suggest that GP practices are "essentially private businesses" since they only have one customer - the NHS.

Again, this is wrong. Several private companies avail of GP practices. Travel vaccines are not covered by the NHS. Medicals for insurance companies and jobs are not covered by the NHS. Legal work is not covered by the NHS. Until recently fertility treatements, genetic screening etc were accessed through GPs outside the NHS.

The self-employed/partnership arrangement is just a figleaf so that they can pretend they're professionals like accountants and architects rather than employees.

This is wrong and very offensive. Doctors are not professionals??? I suggest you spend half an hour on Google.

Getting back to the thread, the question is whether they're justified in using 0844 numbers as a source of revenue for their own benefit rather than the NHS as a whole. Or maybe the practice managers are pocketing it all!
I accept the possibility that the practices don't actually receive cash payments but instead get supplied with 'free' telecoms equipment. Even then, there is an indirect gain since they don't have to invest the money themselves and might be able to save on staff costs as a result.

Which is indeed the point I was making when you misquoted me above. I think that, looking back across the thread, you are the one who keeps going off topic into territory that you obviously don't really have an informed opinion of.

I wish an 0844 GP would post their views here but then they have little need to use a site like this!

This point is probably correct.