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Fluoride in tap water
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No - emotive is when you bring up things like thalidomide.
The above is a perfect example of what I'm fiercely against.How to find a dentist.
1. Get recommendations from friends/family/neighbours/etc.
2. Once you have a short-list, VISIT the practices - dont just phone. Go on the pretext of getting a Practice Leaflet.
3. Assess the helpfulness of the staff and the level of the facilities.
4. Only book initial appointment when you find a place you are happy with.0 -
Fact = what you personally think is "good science"?
Emotive=pertaining/appealing to the emotions, which is exactly:- what you are doing when you put forward the spurious "safe and effective" argument without the firm evidence to prove it
- what the "pro" lobby will be doing during any consultation period. " Would you accept fluoridation of the water supply if it meant that children with rotten teeth didn't have to suffer?"..........
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Bending the truth - Yes - the european countries you mention are reducing water fluoridation.
Reason - they have decided to go for the fluoridation of the salt supply instead.
Another way of 'mass medicating' their population, and one that a lot of other european countries - including our own - have done for iodine for decades.How to find a dentist.
1. Get recommendations from friends/family/neighbours/etc.
2. Once you have a short-list, VISIT the practices - dont just phone. Go on the pretext of getting a Practice Leaflet.
3. Assess the helpfulness of the staff and the level of the facilities.
4. Only book initial appointment when you find a place you are happy with.0 -
Toothsmith wrote: ».
How to find a dentist.
1. Get recommendations from friends/family/neighbours/colleagues.
2. Once you have a short-list, VISIT the practices - dont just phone. Go on the pretext of getting a Practice Leaflet/Fee Guide.
3. Assess the friendlyness/helpfulness of the staff and the level of the facilities.
4. Only book initial appointment when you find a place you are happy with, with a fee level you feel is reasonable for the services provided.
Or if you live in Herefordshire, throw yourself at the first practice with a vacancy and certainly don't kid yourself you'll ever find an NHS dentist. Such is the state of dentistry in the counties the NHS has overlooked. There aren't even enough private dentists to go around. The NHS website promises Herefordshire an influx of foreign dentists but they are a long time arriving. Let's hope they are as good as the fabled Polish plumbers.0 -
I've been following this debate closely. Won't say which side I'm on but you'll probably guess.
I would like one thing confirmed. I was born in the North East, little village across the river from Newcastle upon Tyne in 1959. I was always told, from very early age, that "they" put Fluoride in the water to help out teeth. This was from parents, teachers, dentists, doctors and others.
Is this true?
If it is then I lived for the first 38 years of my life drinking the water and it did me no harm. I don't remember it ever doing anyone else any harm either, no scare stories in the press, nobody claim to know someone who knows someone who was damaged by Fluoride. Absolutely nothing.
When I was 38.5 I moved to Dorset. Don't know about the water down here, but I do know it tastes like p*ss and you have to filter it before you can drink it. You can't put unfiltered water in the kettle either, well you can but after a week you won't use the kettle again.
As for the mass medication question, and choice.
I was jabbed with needles, without my consent from when I was born until I was 16 and had the right to say no. Now my daughter won't get her kids vaccinated because she is scared they will get instant brain damage.
I grew up with thalidomide kids, at least 8 of them that I can remember in my school. Never knew, or ever heard of a Fluoride kid.
IMO anyone who tries to compare Fluoride with Thalidomide needs to be taken round the back of the bike sheds and given a good kicking. They are NOT the same, in fact they are worlds apart.
I also think that saying don't put Fluoride in the water and blaming the parents if they don't look after their kids teeth sounds good. But it is the kids that will suffer!
I also think that as soon as kids are old enough to brush their own teeth they are old enough to work out they don't actually need to brush their teeth to keep their parents happy. They know they just have to put toothpaste in their mouth so their breathe smells of toothpaste and their parents will think they have brushed their teeth.
We've all done it. conned out parents into thinking we've done something when we haven't.
My favourite trick was wetting the hair hair behind my ears. Because I knew my mother would always ask if 'd washed behind my ears, and take the wet hair as a sign I had. I also knew that coming down stairs with a bit of toothpaste on my cheek would be proof that I'd brushed my teeth.Face it, you can stand over your kids and make sure they do things, but once you leave them on their own they will stop doing it and look for ways to convince you they have done it.I was a kid once, and I knew what every kids learns, toothpaste has only one real use. To hide the smell of smoke or alcohol on your breathe.
I don't care who you are, and how much you say your kids clean their teeth 4 times a day. Kids don't like cleaning their teeth, and once you stop watching them they will find ways to not do it.
Then they will get older and find that it is useful for hiding things from you. And when they are a little older, and discover the opposite sex they will really want to brush their teeth.
But there are those years in between when they go though the phase of not doing what you want them to do and doing it because they can see a benefit from doing it.0 -
jinnan_tonnix wrote: »Without wanting to get into a big debate - the pros and cons are available for all to see - personally, I think the water companies should be responsible for delivering clean, safe, uncontaminated drinking water, and not a vehicle for mass medication.
If I want to ingest flouride, it should be my choice.
Totally agree, a matter of choice for the individual.0 -
I too live in the North-East in an area that has fluoride added to the water at the request of the local health authority. I'm not too keen on the idea of mass medication but have to say I'm now 40 and have lived in this area all my life and have never heard of anyone having any bad side-effects from fluoride?geordie_joe wrote: »I've been following this debate closely. Won't say which side I'm on but you'll probably guess.
I would like one thing confirmed. I was born in the North East, little village across the river from Newcastle upon Tyne in 1959. I was always told, from very early age, that "they" put Fluoride in the water to help out teeth. This was from parents, teachers, dentists, doctors and others.
Is this true?
From Northumbrian Water's website:
"We do not fluoridate the water we supply in the south east of England. However, around 40% of the water we supply in the north east of England is fluoridated. The fluoridated areas include much of Northumberland and Tyne and Wear and north west Durham. Fluoridation began in these areas in the early 1970s at the request of the local health authorities and has continued ever since. It is paid for by the health authorities."
http://www.nwl.co.uk/Yourtapwater.aspxDum Spiro Spero0 -
Hmmmm....at your age you ought to be past such schoolboy talk. Maybe it would help if you read my post again Geordie Joe, because you seem to have missed the point.geordie_joe wrote: »IMO anyone who tries to compare Fluoride with Thalidomide needs to be taken round the back of the bike sheds and given a good kicking. They are NOT the same, in fact they are worlds apart.
The mention of thalidomide, amongst many other issues, was as an example of how previous scientific studies and successive Governments have told the population that x, y or z is "safe and effective", and subsequently this has be shown to be a falsehood. Whether or not you were at school with anyone whose mother had unfortunately taken that particular drug has absolutely nothing to with the principle being put forward.
And there, Toothsmith, is that emotive argument that I said would be used in favour of fluoride.:Dgeordie_joe wrote: »I also think that saying don't put Fluoride in the water and blaming the parents if they don't look after their kids teeth sounds good. But it is the kids that will suffer!
-Each of us has to take personal responsibility for our own health, and if we have kids, for theirs too. It's not just about poor dental hygiene, its about the sugary rubbish that people allow their kids to eat, and it’s about the lack of NHS funding. As has already been said, fluoride is available in other forms for those who want it. If you had, for example, thyroid problems, you might think is more than a little unjust that your health might have to suffer due to fluoridation because of someone else’s lack of care with their own family’s teeth. Dental decay is not life threatening and it can be treated in other ways.
When fluoridating the water supply, there is no way of controlling the individual’s received dose, because fluoride is also present in other things and people drink differing amounts of water, as another poster has already pointed out. If you are really worried about small children’s health you might like to read what has been said in the US and Canada about not using fluoridated water for mixing up infant formula.
If a doctor prescribed a medicine for someone without knowing their medical history, or what other medicine they might be taking, without giving a precise dosage and without the patient’s consent s/he’d be accused of negligence, but this is what fluoridating the water supplies will effectively be doing. And normally of course, consent can be freely withdrawn at any time – but that won’t help with fluoride because you won’t be able to either give your personal consent, nor be free to withdraw it.
It’s always interesting to hear of people’s personal experiences but if you are going to have an informed opinion it would probably be useful for you to read up on both the pros and the cons, the evidence presented by both sides. The fact that you don’t know about either the water you drank in the north east or are drinking now in Dorset suggests that you haven’t done a great deal of research on the issue, and without that evidence how would you know whether you have any side–effects? I accept that some people are from the school of “if the authorities says it’s right then it must be”, but that doesn’t mean that everyone else has to agree with them.
If you search online for Professor Hardy Limeback from Toronto University (already mentioned by jinnan_tonnix) , once a leading pro-fluoridation speaker, and Dr Paul Connett, a Professor of Chemistry. You could also have a look at the York University website for the Review papers and here: http://www.appgaf.org.uk/ so that you get a clearer picture of why many people oppose water fluoridation.
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Hmmmm....at your age you ought to be past such schoolboy talk.
Why? That's an expression I picked up a college professor in a documentary about Eaton.
Maybe it would help if you read my post again Geordie Joe, because you seem to have missed the point.
I doubt it, I'm like you, I only believe the bits I want to.The mention of thalidomide, amongst many other issues, was as an example of how previous scientific studies and successive Governments have told the population that x, y or z is "safe and effective", and subsequently this has be shown to be a falsehood. Whether or not you were at school with anyone whose mother had unfortunately taken that particular drug has absolutely nothing to with the principle being put forward.
There's a difference between a drug being dangerous and the drug company not wanting to believe it and people drinking water for decades without any effects.And there, Toothsmith, is that emotive argument that I said would be used in favour of fluoride.:D
It's not emotive, the government have a duty to look after the population, especially those who can't look after them selves.
If you get your way and they stop/don't put fluoride in the water what will you be shouting for next? Getting rid of of social services because it's the parents responsibility to look after their kids, and if they do it's tough luck on the kids?-Each of us has to take personal responsibility for our own health, and if we have kids, for theirs too.
But we all know not everyone does. The reason why doesn't matter, but when they don't it's the kids that suffer. We have to do what we can to stop those kids suffering.As has already been said, fluoride is available in other forms for those who want it.
Yep, and it should be in the water for those who are too young to know they need it.
Yes but I would be shouting very loudly about it. They would be making TV documentaries about me and parading my on TV to warn people.If you had, for example, thyroid problems, you might think is more than a little unjust that your health might have to suffer due to fluoridation because of someone else’s lack of care with their own family’s teeth.
I've never seen anyone on the TV that actually has any of the things you say COULD happen.
Dental decay is not life threatening and it can be treated in other ways.
No, but it does hurt and being able to be treated in others ways is no guarantee it will be.When fluoridating the water supply, there is no way of controlling the individual’s received dose, because fluoride is also present in other things and people drink differing amounts of water,
Yet with all this fluoride we are consuming nobody yet has stood up and said "Look what it has done to my health"as another poster has already pointed out. If you are really worried about small children’s health you might like to read what has been said in the US and Canada about not using fluoridated water for mixing up infant formula.
Why should I, if I believe what I am told 100,000 of people where I lived have been brought up with baby milk made with fluoridated water and it did them no harm.If a doctor prescribed a medicine for someone without knowing their medical history, or what other medicine they might be taking, without giving a precise dosage and without the patient’s consent s/he’d be accused of negligence, but this is what fluoridating the water supplies will effectively be doing. And normally of course, consent can be freely withdrawn at any time – but that won’t help with fluoride because you won’t be able to either give your personal consent, nor be free to withdraw it.
But that happened to me for 38 years and is still happening to a lot of my friends and family. They, and myself just don't care. Probably because we know it does no harm so don't believe all this crap about it might harm.
It’s always interesting to hear of people’s personal experiences but if you are going to have an informed opinion it would probably be useful for you to read up on both the pros and the cons, the evidence presented by both sides.
Well I happen to think living with it for decades, along with 1000,000 (maybe millions) of other people and seeing it does no harm qualifies me as having an informed opinion.
If I read up about it all I will find is those who against it saying this could happen, and those in favour of it saying it won't.
I drank it for decades and know what happens when you drink it.The fact that you don’t know about either the water you drank in the north east or are drinking now in Dorset suggests that you haven’t done a great deal of research on the issue,
I drank the stuff for 38 years, what more can I do? You say drinking it may cause harm, I say I drank it for 38 years and come to no harm, nor did anyone else.and without that evidence how would you know whether you have any side–effects?
Because I would have them! You can have side-effects of something without knowing what caused them.
I accept that some people are from the school of “if the authorities says it’s right then it must be”, but that doesn’t mean that everyone else has to agree with them.
I'm not of the school of “if the authorities says it’s right then it must be” I'm of the school of "it did me, and none of the others any harm, so people who say it could are just scare mongering"If you search online for Professor Hardy Limebackfrom Toronto University (already mentioned by jinnan_tonnix) , once a leading pro-fluoridation speaker, and Dr Paul Connett, a Professor of Chemistry. You could also have a look at the York University website for the Review papers and here: http://www.appgaf.org.uk/ so that you get a clearer picture of why many people oppose water fluoridation.
There'd be no point. Telling me what might happen if I drink water with fluoride in it would be a waste of time after drinking it for 38 years and nothing happening.0 -
[Toothsmith wrote: »Bending the truth - Yes - the european countries you mention are reducing water fluoridation.
Reason - they have decided to go for the fluoridation of the salt supply instead.
.
You argue for fluoride in the water as the best way forward - the point is that if that were the panacea that is held up to be and there was solid scientific evidence then the practice would be spreading across the world. It is not bending the truth to say that those countries either have never had artificial fluoride in the water supply or, where they have, the practice has been stopped.
Yes, a few of those countries offer fluoridated salt at a lower (subidised) cost to the consumer: non-fluoridated salt is also available. There’s a key word there - offer. If something is offered you have choice. If something is foisted upon you have no choice. And interestingly ………
“Although the prevalence of caries varies between countries, levels everywhere have fallen greatly in the past three decades, and national rates of caries are now universally low. This trend has occurred regardless of the concentration of fluoride in water or the use of fluoridated salt, and it probably reflects use of fluoridated toothpastes and other factors, including perhaps aspects of nutrition.”
SOURCE: Cheng KK, et al. (2007). Adding fluoride to water supplies. British Medical Journal 335(7622):699-702.0
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