Council Tax - Court Summons

cydfenix

Thanks CIS for your replies. A few notes however:

This is not the council's issue - as long as they posted it to the last known address then it has been served correctly. - as you so rightly put it, "as long as they posted it". This is what I've been trying to tell them, that I never received the reminder letter. They can't prove that they've posted other than a note on the computer against my details. How is that enough to decide that it has been served correctly?

providing they posted to the last known address then they have issued the reminder correctly and the summons is correct if you didn't bring the account up to date within 7 days - well, I repeat, I chased them twice that they had the correct address as I hadn't received anything and twice they told me they had and that I would receive paperwork in due course. Furthermore, and again I repeat myself, how could I have brought the account up to date within 7 days if I didn't know the amount was due since I didn't receive the reminder letter?

and to answer your last points:
This is again in line with statutory legislation - there are 3 cases where only 1 reminder (either normal reminder or final notice) needs to be issued before a summons;

a) an amount has become due from a previous year. - I wasn't living at the address the previous year
b) you had an instalment plan starting between 1 January and 31 March. - I didn't have an instalment plan between 1 Jan and 31 March as I only moved to my property early February and this is from when I chased the Council twice
c) you miss a payment and don't bring it up to date within 7 days. - once again, how can I bring an account up to date if I didn't know if was owed anyway?

I do appreciate your help in deciphering this and I see that you work in a Council Tax Recovery, but your replies are pretty much in line with "the wall" that I say I am being met with. You haven't taken into account the first and fundamental reason I am being issued with the summons in the first place - THAT I NEVER RECEIVED THE REMINDER LETTER. I must say that I am baffled that one missing letter is all it takes to issue a summons which must surely cost a lot more than sending the reminder letter as registered mail. Surely, if it is indeed one strike and you're out, then surely to avoid the cost of issuing a summons, it would be best to spend jsut a couple of quid to send the one and only reminder letter as registered mail. This would avoid all the problems I am having above, namely that I didn't get the reminder letter. I don't even know whether it was sent first class or second class.
With all the problem Royal Mail have been having in recent past, that the possibility of missing mail isn't even taken into account really beggars belief. Furthermore, the fact that once I did know about the amount owing (again, I stress that I paid this amount even though I didn't know what it was for and in full faith that the Council knew what they were doing), I paid the full amount along with the current month's tax as well as the next month's tax, should prove that I wasn't trying to get out of paying it in the first place.

So once again, I am asking for help in establishing a line of communication because I do feel that I am being met by a wall.

CIS

Thanks CIS for your replies. A few notes however:

This is not the council's issue - as long as they posted it to the last known address then it has been served correctly. - as you so rightly put it, "as long as they posted it". This is what I've been trying to tell them, that I never received the reminder letter. They can't prove that they've posted other than a note on the computer against my details. How is that enough to decide that it has been served correctly?

providing they posted to the last known address then they have issued the reminder correctly and the summons is correct if you didn't bring the account up to date within 7 days - well, I repeat, I chased them twice that they had the correct address as I hadn't received anything and twice they told me they had and that I would receive paperwork in due course. Furthermore, and again I repeat myself, how could I have brought the account up to date within 7 days if I didn't know the amount was due since I didn't receive the reminder letter?

and to answer your last points:
This is again in line with statutory legislation - there are 3 cases where only 1 reminder (either normal reminder or final notice) needs to be issued before a summons;

a) an amount has become due from a previous year. - I wasn't living at the address the previous year
b) you had an instalment plan starting between 1 January and 31 March. - I didn't have an instalment plan between 1 Jan and 31 March as I only moved to my property early February and this is from when I chased the Council twice
c) you miss a payment and don't bring it up to date within 7 days. - once again, how can I bring an account up to date if I didn't know if was owed anyway?

I do appreciate your help in deciphering this and I see that you work in a Council Tax Recovery, but your replies are pretty much in line with "the wall" that I say I am being met with

I don't hold any opinion on the system as such and are only advising you of the action in respect of the relevant legislation. There are flaws but the council are as bound to act by legislation and most would happily change parts of the system if they could.

This is not the council's issue - as long as they posted it to the last known address then it has been served correctly. - as you so rightly put it, "as long as they posted it". This is what I've been trying to tell them, that I never received the reminder letter. They can't prove that they've posted other than a note on the computer against my details. How is that enough to decide that it has been served correctly?

The council will (I haven't come across one yet who doesn't) have a postal docket for X number of Reminders that were posted on that day. This should be easily cross-referenced against the number of reminders printed.

a) an amount has become due from a previous year. - I wasn't living at the address the previous year
b) you had an instalment plan starting between 1 January and 31 March. - I didn't have an instalment plan between 1 Jan and 31 March as I only moved to my property early February and this is from when I chased the Council twice

There would have been both a Council Tax Bill and Reminder issued before the Summons - it would certainly look odd to the council that you didn't received the inital bill and reminder but you received the new years council tax bill and the summons.

From what you have said the documents were served correctly - BUT - if you contact then regarding the fact that you spoke to them twice during the period then they may withdraw the summons if you can argue that you weren't dealt with correctly at that time.

Surely, if it is indeed one strike and you're out, then surely to avoid the cost of issuing a summons, it would be best to spend jsut a couple of quid to send the one and only reminder letter as registered mail.

It would be un-manageable volume wise. There's also the issue of having to get a signature - all that happens is that people would refuse to accept recorded delivery letters that seemed to come from the council and straight away the council are stuck.

With all the problem Royal Mail have been having in recent past, that the possibility of missing mail isn't even taken into account really beggars belief. Furthermore, the fact that once I did know about the amount owing

The reason this doesn't happen is that if they did then everyone would deny having received the documents.

teabag29

Hi there,

Am emailing on behalf of a family memeber to get some advice. Basically him and his partner are being investigated for benefit fraud dating from 2007-2010. Although it has not been to court yet it very much looks like its heading that way as the total debts amount to around 20k (they have denied it).

They have received the council tax arrears bill totalling 2k and was paying back £50 a month but stopped paying it a few months back on the advice of a solicitor. The solicitor said it looked like an admission of guilt if they pay it ( tbh i think she was an idiot or trainee or something because she didnt seem to know what she was saying). Anyway fast forward a few months and they've received the reminders but not paid anything. They got a final reminder about 6 weeks ago and I rang up on their behalf to explain the advice they'd been given and that they hadnt actually been found guilty yet so how could they be liable until proven guilty.

The council said that they must pay and if they were to get found not guilty they would be refunded anything owed to them. They said they dont normally accept anything less than £80 a month in payment plans for arrears of that amount but because of his low wage (12000 per year) and all their other bills they were willing to accept £50 a month but a payment must be made within 3 days and then every month after. I explained this to them and they werent happy but knew they had to pay.

Fast forward 6 weeks and they have recieved a summons to appear at court in 3 weeks for liability order. Why? because they still havent made payment!! He says he will ring them 1st thing monday and offer £50 there and then and then each month.

My question is will this stop him having to go to court...im thinking no as they will want to make sure this wont happen again. Also will they even accept installments now after all the delays? theres no way he can afford to pay the whole amount in one, £50 a month is max they can pay. They dont have much the baliffs could take, certainly not enough to clear the debt so what is the likely outcome?

I also wrote out a statement of affairs thing for them for the housing benefit arrears they owe (£8600) as they are unwilling to accept £50 a month. This was over a week ago and has still not been posted off!!!! They are worried and keep prolonging things but its not going to go away.

daedal

teabag29 wrote: »

Hi there,

Am emailing on behalf of a family memeber to get some advice. Basically him and his partner are being investigated for benefit fraud dating from 2007-2010. Although it has not been to court yet it very much looks like its heading that way as the total debts amount to around 20k (they have denied it).

They have received the council tax arrears bill totalling 2k and was paying back £50 a month but stopped paying it a few months back on the advice of a solicitor. The solicitor said it looked like an admission of guilt if they pay it ( tbh i think she was an idiot or trainee or something because she didnt seem to know what she was saying). Anyway fast forward a few months and they've received the reminders but not paid anything. They got a final reminder about 6 weeks ago and I rang up on their behalf to explain the advice they'd been given and that they hadnt actually been found guilty yet so how could they be liable until proven guilty.

The council said that they must pay and if they were to get found not guilty they would be refunded anything owed to them. They said they dont normally accept anything less than £80 a month in payment plans for arrears of that amount but because of his low wage (12000 per year) and all their other bills they were willing to accept £50 a month but a payment must be made within 3 days and then every month after. I explained this to them and they werent happy but knew they had to pay.

Fast forward 6 weeks and they have recieved a summons to appear at court in 3 weeks for liability order. Why? because they still havent made payment!! He says he will ring them 1st thing monday and offer £50 there and then and then each month.

My question is will this stop him having to go to court...im thinking no as they will want to make sure this wont happen again. Also will they even accept installments now after all the delays? theres no way he can afford to pay the whole amount in one, £50 a month is max they can pay. They dont have much the baliffs could take, certainly not enough to clear the debt so what is the likely outcome?

I also wrote out a statement of affairs thing for them for the housing benefit arrears they owe (£8600) as they are unwilling to accept £50 a month. This was over a week ago and has still not been posted off!!!! They are worried and keep prolonging things but its not going to go away.

Sounds like the council where reasonable in the first place by agreeing to accept £50 a month.

Them choosing not to pay because they are being investigated for Benefit Fraud doesn't stop the liability. The council would have stopped getting the benefit money, so they do owe the council the money for council tax.

If they are then found that they did not commit benefit fraud, the benefit would be paid, and the council would owe them money and they would get that refunded.

Whether or not the council will withdraw legal action is really dependent on whether or not they believe that they will pay the money each month, considering they owe £2k and stopped paying the council might be inclined to just go to court, at least they are going to get the money, or be able to take further action.

They just need to explain why they stopped paying, hope they get a sympathetic ear and then stick to repayments. Council's will often stop legal action if they believe the person will stick to an agreement.

CIS

They have received the council tax arrears bill totalling 2k and was paying back £50 a month but stopped paying it a few months back on the advice of a solicitor. The solicitor said it looked like an admission of guilt if they pay it ( tbh i think she was an idiot or trainee or something because she didnt seem to know what she was saying)

I suspect your correct about the solicitor. The basis of any council tax calculation is that , rightly or wrongly, the amount charged is due until such time as a calculation is made to the contrary and the council will continue with action against this amount.

I see this problem often with solicitors who try to take on council tax related cases without having any knowledge of how the system works.

Also will they even accept installments now after all the delays? theres no way he can afford to pay the whole amount in one, £50 a month is max they can pay. They dont have much the baliffs could take, certainly not enough to clear the debt so what is the likely outcome

As a recovery officer I would not even consider the arrangement without the liability order and nor would most councils. They have a duty to ensure they act for the tax payer and this would include obtaining the liability order in case of any future default.

webbit

Councils are a law unto themselves, i have a few dealing when i got a month behind. I contacted the leader of our council (NELC) and even he could not do anything. So who are these people who send out these demands, and why cannot they be contacted. As the leader of my council said , they are faceless people.

Booker_Grimm

Hi.

New to the forum and would like a little advice please.

My partner and I have just recieved a summons for an outstand balance of just over £200.00 including court costs. We have a court date of 24 May 2011. We have bank statements that conclusively prove that the payment they say we missed has in fact been paid by direct debit on the same date it is always paid, and were assured by a staff rep that they had received the payment and the matter was dealt with. Now, literally months later we have received this summons and have apparently will have to pay the balance and court charge even if we dispute their claim!

Is this true? What options are open to us? And do we simply go to the council and prove that they were paid what they say they are owed, or go to the court and prove it there?

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

CIS

My partner and I have just recieved a summons for an outstand balance of just over £200.00 including court costs. We have a court date of 24 May 2011. We have bank statements that conclusively prove that the payment they say we missed has in fact been paid by direct debit on the same date it is always paid, and were assured by a staff rep that they had received the payment and the matter was dealt with.

Something is a bit off here - the summons would not be issued if the payment was received as billed as the systems will not issue a summons on a zero balance.

In most cases that I come across like this (the payment must not be showing on your council tax account otherwise it would show a zero balance as DD payments will be automatically allocated to accounts) the payment has been bounced by the bank and has been reversed with the council.

You need to go and speak with council ASAP so that you can see what payments they have and when the payments were actually due - you also need to check all of your bank statements against your council tax demand for last year and check that none have been reversed by your bank (sometimes this can be a few weeks after the payment is due).

webbit

Booker_Grimm wrote: »

Hi.

We have bank statements that conclusively prove that the payment they say we missed has in fact been paid


if you are 100% sure the council have your money i would go to court and show the magistrates your bank statements, tell them despite your protests your council have not listened to you, maybe you can issuue costs to the council.
Have your day in court.

CIS

To be honest - what's point of wasting time attending court if it can likely be resolved before then ?.

At best the magistrate would adjourn the hearing until a later court to allow the issue to be resolved. The chance of them throwing it out are very slim as there would need to be a full hearing of evidence from both sides to allow the magistrate to determine what has happened and this isn't going to happen if you just turn up on the day as he has to allow the council time to gather their evidence.