ADVICE Please, Hubby hid debts

Willa_2

My husband and I have been married for 5 years. When we met, I owned a house, and had lots of assets. My husband shared a rented house and didn't even own a car. He drove a company vehicle, but l didn't find that out until I told off his boss about repairing a dent in the door the boss had made. I didn't stress too much about all that. But at this point, it seems like all the things he didn't tell me are snowballing out of control, and I no longer trust what he tells me anymore.

The crisis:

We we married, I put my husband on the deed, because I felt we should enter marriage as equals. We ended up selling the house 2 years later with a $330,0000 profit! I had owned the house for 15 prior to meeting my husband. He did build a nice fence and a greenhouse (I paid for materials), and did a lot of landscaping. We purchased an RV, and went hunting for a new home in Washington State. We had a lot of fun, traveling around for a few months. I continued my online book sales whilst on the road (though downscaled). We found a place within a month, and I stayed in the RV at my in-laws while hubby made 3 trips hauling our worldly goods to our new home. This was a year ago. We paid cash for the property, so we have no mortgage.

Last spring I realized I would be unable to meet all of the bills on my income alone. The bills being: a truck loan for my husband's truck (the loan is in my name only), a loan we'd taken out to make home improvements, and two small credit cards, plus all living expenses. He had been staying home, working on the property (a large deck, fencing and so on), but I found myself angry when I'd see him surfing the net for hours a day. We discussed the situation, and concluded that my husband would need to get a job. Months went by while he waited for a particular guy to call who said he was going to hire him (a job my husband really wanted). We sold the RV, and steadily other things to free up cash (all at a loss) Then hubby decided he could make money by starting his own trucking company. We owned the truck (the one the loan is on), and a trailer (outright). Money was very tight. I put the hefty commercial insurance on my credit card. We agreed that it was risky, and that he could only attempt this new venture while the money held out. We had a long-standing agreement not to take out any new credit.

Things went badly from the beginning, the trailer broke down, the tires kept blowing, on and on. I kept asking him how he was making any money. He kept saying he was. He spent three days putting the paperwork together when I insisted he prove it. He concluded he was making $2,500 a month. A month later he said it wasn't working out anymore, and that he would have to get a regular job. During an argument, he finally fessed up that he had put $7,000 on a new credit card. A week later I got a phone call from a guy calling, saying my husband was 2 payments late. I blew my top. I got a credit report. He's opened 4 new accounts, he's late on 2 of them, his credit score has dropped to 529. Mine still sits at 752. Total he owes: $14,000. My two cards are maxed out at $20,000 each, having had to use them every time money was tight.

I wanted to pay those off as soon as he had a steady income so we could get a mortgage. I wouldn't have qualified for enough on my own. Now his credit history and score is going to hinder our getting a mortgage. Our place should be worth around $200K. He's now working at a low-paying job, and I've written it all down: there is no way he can meet all his bills, and contribute significantly to the household. I'm still keeping up (barely). His truck now needs a $4,000 repair, which we don't have. He refuses to sell the truck, which would help matters. He refuses to ask his parents for a loan (I am sure they would help), nobody in my family has any money.

I am so angry, and remembering all the other times he's lied about finances. He did this right before we sold the house too. We paid about $14,000 off after we sold the house. I love him, but I don't know if I can trust him anymore. I don't trust him anymore. And what's worse, when I insist we talk about matters, he doesn't think this is such a betrayal. He says he did what he had to do. Now we don't even have money for a counselor. I've already lost so many assets in this marriage, I don't want to walk away with nothing, if we get divorced. I am responsible for any debts he incurrs during the marriage (as he is for mine) He doesn't want a divorce (wonder why??), and is quite stern about that. I am exhausted, scared, and angry. Does anybody have experience, or advice?

miggy

Hi there,
I'm sorry to hear of this - I'm not the person to advise but I wanted to bump your message back up to the top and also to say hang on, because someone more knowledgeable than I am will be along.
Hope you can turn things round soon
Miggy

Pursuit_of_Happiness

Hi, IMHO, if you love someone you don't divorce them over money. I think it is very hard for people to be in a relationship where the wife earns more. Men feel they have a duty to provide for their families. I've got several friends in exactly the same situation as you, and I mean exactly the same. In the case of these two friends they are the kind of people who don't take bad news or confessions very well, instead of understanding and taking a practical view to work through problems together, they tend to go ballistic if their husbands tell them any bad news at all (as if this will achieve anything). They also both believe that their husbands should be aiming to earn at least as much as them and they make that clear by resenting their husbands when they are out of work or are not in high paying jobs. So its not surprising that both their husbands secretly worked up debts while trying to keep up their side of the finances up. Also sounds like you are an author so you have a lot of freedom, your husband may be reluctant to take a job, because he doesn't want to be bossed around and treated like a slave, you should look for jobs he could do that he would enjoy and that would give him the freedom and money that he wants (you need to build up his self esteem to do this, make sure you are not doing the opposite by berating him for his lack of success). Be thankful you don't have money for a councilor, they just take your money and then waste your time and make things worse by trying to get you to let your feelings out etc... and put yourself first. In this situation you need to keep feelings and personal frustrations out. If you love your husband you should separate the practical money side from your relationship.

Tell your husband that you understand he has been trying hard to provide and that's why he ran up the debts. Tell him you understand he doesn't want to do a dead end job and you will work with him to find the right job. Tell him you don't mind if earns less than you do, as long as he is doing his best. Tell him from now on you want all the finances to be out in the open. Tell him that if he slips up or makes a mistake you want to hear immediately so you can both take the best course of action to damage limitate and that you will NOT be angry.

If it looks like he isn't going to be able to cooperate financially tell him you want to seperate your finances in order to protect your relationship. (This is not the ebst policy outcome, but its better than a divorce.)

I think your might have caught this early enough, the debts are recoverable. Just think how much worse it would be if he was gambling or paying for sex or drugs. (such things are less likely to happen if he feels he has your unconditional support and if he feels he can tell you things and so not start a secret life).

I've supported my wife financially for our 6 year marriage, she doesn't want a job. She is a great mother though and works around the house. I would like her to work, but I am glad that through my hard work I can save her having to go out to work and she gives me the emotional support I need to face the 9-5 grind. I've never resented her for this and I think if I did it would destroy our marriage and what use would that be to anyone?

If you win an argument with your spouse it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face, you lose ultimately.

Sure, it's not fair that you have to be the bigger, more responsible, harder working person in the relationship, but life's not fair...

Good luck!:rolleyes:

Willa_2

Thanks to PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS...I sure appreciate you taking your own time to help me. Your words help a lot. Gives me other perspectives to take into account. I know I bring financial baggage to this situation. I grew up in a family that never had enough money, and as an adult worked my butt off for all that I had, knowing that I had no room for error, as I have no family to turn to. When I met my husband, I was happy to share what I have with him, and being able to move and start a new life was so exciting. Now it's turned into a stressful nightmare.

I am a bookseller of used and rare books, though I would love to be able to spend time writing some day. The business is going well, just not well enough to pay for the whole she-bang. I am in a new location, so have to find new places to find my inventory.

For a time a few years ago, my husband actually earned more than I did. So I'm not sure when this unequal situation began. I do think he has some sort of spending problem, though. He's still buying his fancy beer, and $3 coffee drinks, gets his hair cut every two weeks, and so on. When he ran up cards last time, I couldn't figure out where all his money was going. Our joint account sure didn't see much of it.

He's been putting in lots of applications, but I think his age (55), and now his poor credit rating are against him. And the security jobs he's taking always take him out of town, sometimes for days at a time. I do trust his sexual fidelity, and he is very level-headed. I'm a bit of of a hot-head, which I guess you picked up on. I try so hard not to yell, but I feel so discounted by his dismissal of the importance of my feelings.

Right now, I still don't know what I'm going to do. I do think that this could be an opportunity for us to find a new trust and financial health with eachother, but today I don't even want to be in the same room with him. This is both of our second marriages, and he definitely doesn't want a divorce. I'm going to be on the fence for awhile, I think.

I need to call his employment company today to see if we have the health insurance he said we did. I asked him why we don't have any id cards, or policy. He didn't know, I asked if they were taking his cost out of his paycheck. He didn't even know. He checked, and sure enough, not a penny was going to the health plan. I happen to have some health issues that need to be dealt with, but I've been putting it off, until we have some decent insurance.

We seem to have dead-locked on the truck. That truck has been a place he POURED (with thousands of dollars of extras...some very useful....some vanity) money. I can understand him not wanting to sell it with the mechanical issues (it needs new fuel injectors), he's starting it with starting fluid every day. I would like him to ask for a loan from his parents, at least enough to repair it. Then sell it. We have equity in the truck, enough to buy a reliable vehicle outright. That would eliminate one payment. Since my income fluxtuates, I'm worried about making all these payments on time. So far, I've not made one late payment, but it's been close.

Thanks again. It sure is good to be able to "talk" to somebody about all this. THe only person I've told is my mother, she's a very kind and non-judgmental person.

Adrasteia01

Hi Willa,

I'd say don't be too hard on your husband. I know it is a frustrating situation, but it sounds like you might be driving him away, and that's really not the best thing to do in a marriage. At the end of the day money is important, but if you're in it for life, a marriage is more important.

It also sounds like he sees the truck as a source of hope. By that I mean it gives him the possibility of working for himself again rather than in low-income jobs. And while they aren't earning a lot of money, at least he is trying to make some headway.

I think you need to talk to each other again, and work together in overcoming this problem, rather than going against each other. It sounds like a lot of money has gone on the truck. At the end of the day that's a lot more cash and has had a lot more impact than any little luxuries he might buy for himself (coffee, etc). And he does need luxuries - everybody does, and spare time too, such as net surfing (as long as he's not doing it all day).

As well as the credit reports, you need to look at the credit card statements to find out exactly what the money has been going on. Also start a spending diary where you write down everything you buy (him too). That way not only will you be able to see what each other is doing, but where all of your money is going too.

Where the truck is concerned, I would suggest that he earns the money from his work to repair it, rather than you putting it on your card again. You should find out where he's working and when, and exactly what he is doing. Also note down a full SOA (statement of affairs - you don't have to do that online but for your own purposes), then you can work on bringing it down to save some money, and budgeting if that's what you want to do.

It doesn't sound like you're husband has gone out of his way to lie or run up lots of stuff while you foot the bill, even though that is essentially the way it's come off. It's more he tried to start a business and keep up with you, and contribute as much as he could, because he knew that was what you expected of him.

Work out exactly what you expect him to contribute, and what he really has the means to contribute at the moment. At 55 it can be difficult to find a job, at least at this side of the world, and it may take him some time to find a well paying job. He might never find a high income job again - you have to consider the possibility. Perhaps he can look for one though while he is working in low-income jobs, or he can save some money in his current job/s to fix the truck.

What about the rare book sales - I assume that's an ebay business? Could he work doing that with you?

Maybe you need to draw a line on what you're willing to give him - set him a limit per month for instance, and agree to take care of certain bills. If he has his own bank account let him put his own money in or put so much a month, and that's it. No joint account except for the occasional squirrelling away of cash, and no 'second cards' under anyone's name on credit cards. Perhaps get a loan to pay off the credit cards, and close them so you won't use them at all (and will pay less interest). Not sure what interest rates are like in the US.

Tamara

chevalier

Well I am afraid that I am on the opposite side of the fence. If your OH knew that things were tight, and STILL ran up debts, I would be chuffing livid. It is highly irresponsible, selfish and childish.

So he has to take responsibility. If he wants to keep the truck, then he works to fix it, even if its flipping burgers in Mac Donalds or stacking shelves in Walmart. Give him a time limit to get the money together. If he doesn't come through in that time, then sell it. You have to pay off the loan for it, so no problem there.

If he is not working (thought they had workfare there for you benefits?), then he gives you all of his credit cards, and he gets a cash allowance. Once its gone it is gone. Anything he earns he gets to keep half, and you get half. And he has to be a man and ask his family for the loan. HE HAS GOT YOU TWO IN THIS MESS so he has to help fix it.

He has to learn to be financially responsible, especially if you have health problems. What would he do if you couldn't do your business anymore?.
If he acts like a child, then unfortunately that is what you will have to treat him like until he can re earn your trust.

sorry if this is harsh
chev

Adrasteia01

Generally these things are solved more easily by working together when both partners want to do so, and listen to each other. He doesn't sound overly happy as it is, and he's working in a low income job. These problems aren't solved overnight but in steps, and putting loads of pressure on him now is only going to put more pressure on their marriage (sorry) and make him more stressed than he already is.

True, he should take responsibility for his actions but not everyone can earn a high income salary, and certainly not all of the time. While I think it is important that she sets a limit on his spending and takes away as many avenues of credit as possible, I also think it's important to rebuild trust and not make it blatantly obvious that she doesn't trust him not to run up money on the credit cards or open more.

I suggest getting rid of the credit cards altogether - take out a loan and pay it off instead. Get by without the credit cards - you said they were pretty much up to their limits anyway. And make it clear they're not to take out any more unless they decide together to do so.

And if he agrees to that, and sticks to that, and works (even in a low income job), as long as he's putting in the work overall, go easy on him and try not to judge him. Everyone makes mistakes, and he should be given a chance to help put things right.

Tamara

Pursuit_of_Happiness

Willa, I was going to reply in great detail and fill in some points I forgot, but what a fantastic post from Tamara, exactly the things I neglected to say totally agree! The last paragraph of her post though, I think should be a 2nd best option. Ideally communication and understanding are key here.

It sounds to me, based on what we know that your husband is a pretty decent guy who has had a hard time, you should count yourself lucky he doesn't have full blown clinical depression, many men in his situation would. (Worth considering if he has a mild depression though - I wouldn't raise it, but you consider it and think if you are being too tough.)

The luxuries he is buying sound like minimum sanity luxuries to me, could be so much worse.

Your best bet is to get everything in the open and make it clear you want to act as a team from now on. Assume the worst, assume that he actually has debt which are three times bigger than you know and promise yourself you will be understanding, if it turns out they aren't three times bigger count yourself lucky. You must make sure he can talk to you, he might slip up even after agreeing to a new regime, you want him to tell you quickly and then you both calmly see if there is anything you can do to reduce the chance of a slip up again. (above all don't get angry. if you do he just won't tell you).

I think getting him to work on your business he worth considering, you would need to pitch it right. You mustn't treat him like an employee (certainly not in a serious way) on the other hand you don't want him messing up your only source of income. (be kind when he makes some minor mistakes though). Don't be too possessive about your business if you do this.

With regard to the truck take the most certain way out, consider the value of limiting your losses by getting out of the truck before it gets worse even if you exit at a loss.

I don't think the harsh approach will work by the sound of it, he's your partner not a dog!

To get things kicked off, you could say you've been thinking that you've been too harsh and not understanding enough and you want to change things around because your relationship is really important.

Finally, I know some other cases where the men were proper parasites, I'm not sure your husband could be that bad even if he tried.

You can't sort this problem out by fighting your husband and winning some kind of victory over him (think of the Asops fable about the sun and wind - hope that didn't sound patronizing).

You want your husband to come to you with problems, both real and imagined, not to beer, shopping sprees, lonely spots, other women etc...

Good Luck!

PS If you go to him and say you want to sort things out and he rejects your advance, don't be angry and don't give up try, try again, write down what you are thinking and leave it as a note when you are out. Start it "darling" and finish it "I love you always!":kisses3: If he makes light of it, don't be offended - do it again! You need to breakdown the cynicism that we all seem to develop with old age.

Lizzieanne

Hi Willa,

There's some great advice already here and I can't really offer anything else, I just wanted to send you some good wishes