MSE guide: plug-in solar panels

QrizB

Read the "Joint Statement from ECA, Electrical Safety First, the IET, NICEIC, and Select on plug-in solar panels". (You can find it on the net)

That was published on the 9th of June.

A week later, on the 16th of June, DESNZ published their safety study that examined most of the ECA etc's concerns and concluded plug-in solar was adequately safe.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/plug-in-solar-electrical-safety-study

The study made nine recommendations, all of which IIRC were accepted by DESNZ and are being implemented.

You'll find the rest of the DESNZ documents here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/plug-in-solar

LHbeware

QrizB

Taking your response point by point:

Free standing options.

Because they are for sale does not mean that they comply with the block's
Fire or Health and Safety rules within the block or the terms of the
lease. One of the reasons is that if a unit falls or is moved, or the
cable is tripped over, the plug will leave the wall socket while the
pins are still live.

Electrical supplies.

Blocks of flats are not “typical of most UK domestic supplies”. Large
blocks are fed from a three phase power supply to the block. This is
then distributed at normal household voltage to each individual flat.
We manage a block of 200 flats, if just half of the flats had a panel
sending 800 watts back 'up the wire' that could result in 80,000 watts
when combined at the block source. Most freeholders and insurers
would want detailed certification that this would be safe.

Batteries.

Many leases won't allow such things as gas cylinders and other forms of
fuel containers to be stored, that may well exclude large batteries.
Neither will they allow bikes etc. to be charged on the premises.
This is usually also covered in the block Fire and H&S regs.

Suitability.

Perhaps I should have said “not suitable for LEASEHOLD flats”

No need to feel sorry for our leaseholders. They will be advised not to spend
their money until they have full written consent from the freeholder
/ landlord and block insurer. We are trying to save them money.
Managing agents, such as us, neither grant nor deny consent, we
merely act as a conduit between the lessee and the freeholder.
Freeholders usually make a charge for such consent – or denial.
They are entitled to hire an overpriced surveyor and an even more
overpriced lawyer to tell them what it already says in the lease.
They then charge the leaseholder – plus their mark up! Our aim is
always to prevent this rip-off.

Thank you for proving my point that the world of leasehold is not properly
understood or even considered when dealing with such matters.

Netexporter

Because they are for sale does not mean that they comply with the block's
Fire or Health and Safety rules within the block or the terms of the
lease. One of the reasons is that if a unit falls or is moved, or the
cable is tripped over, the plug will leave the wall socket while the
pins are still live.

So your rules say no portable mains appliances? Are you running a prison?

Martyn1981

Blocks of flats are not “typical of most UK domestic supplies”. Large
blocks are fed from a three phase power supply to the block. This is
then distributed at normal household voltage to each individual flat.
We manage a block of 200 flats, if just half of the flats had a panel
sending 800 watts back 'up the wire' that could result in 80,000 watts
when combined at the block source. Most freeholders and insurers
would want detailed certification that this would be safe.

Can I check, are you suggesting that a block of 200 flats has a mains supply that would struggle at 80kW? Or to put it another way, would struggle if each flat was consuming 400W each at the same time?

Perhaps you are confusing the issue with DNO export limitations, where most single properties can assume a 3.68kW (3,680W) approval. Obviously, I doubt that scales up to 736kW for a 200 flat property, but 80kW may be Ok (I don't know), but even that, assumes that there is no demand in any of the 200 flats?

Perhaps this is a great opportunity to offer your 200 properties (in this example) with an opportunity to lower their leccy bills even further. Maybe liaise with a suitable battery supplier, perhaps for 200kWh-1,000kWh of battery with perhaps 100kW+ power supply (and ability to charge from excess PV). This battery could utilise cheap off-peak leccy to charge, and then reduce day rate import at higher prices. Great for your clients, even more so if some export credit is applied to them for charging the 'block battery' (from PnP PV) and maybe the block owners as a revenue source.

LHbeware

To Netexporter

The point is that the power is going in the opposite direction. The 3 pin plug is live, not the socket. The power is coming from the panel, not the mains. This isn't so with every normal appliance plugged in to a socket.

To Martyn1981

Not all blocks were built and wired in the last few years. Some of the equipment is not up to handling 80,000 watts going in the wrong direction.

All

I didn't write these rules or the leases but I have to listen to experts, lawyers, insurers, etc. It wont be my decision but the decision of freeholders and landlords and the written binding contracts called leases. I just have to warn the leaseholders of the possibilities that could cost them a waste of money if disallowed.

Netexporter

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82113414#Comment_82113414

I know how plug in solar works, thank you. Do you know what anti-islanding is?

You cited trip hazard as a reason to ban solar. By definition that also prohibits corded mains powered portable appliances, such as vacuum cleaners.

I'll also wager you lease agreements were drawn up long before plug-inn solar was A Thing.

QrizB

The point is that the power is going in the opposite direction. The 3 pin plug is live, not the socket. The power is coming from the panel, not the mains.

Not only has Netexporter explained this above, it's been explained previously in this thread and in pretty much every other thread on the topic of plug-in solar since the idea was first floated on this board.

It's a non-issue.

… every normal appliance plugged in to a socket.

I think this is the key point here. A certified UK plug-in solar system is just another portable appliance. As the current IPS is written, it won't include a battery. If the current lease permits kettles, toasters and standard lamps and there is no specific prohibition of plug-in PV (and since it wasn't even a possibility in the UK until April this year, it's unlikely to have been given any thought by the learned people drafting leases) it's likely to be permitted.

Yes, attaching stuff to the structure might well need prior authorisation but not all plug-in solar is "attached"; some is free-standing.

If you (or anyone else) know for certain that your lease was written in the anticipation of plug-in solar (or other microgeneration systems) and prohibits them, that's another matter.

Martyn1981

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82113414#Comment_82113414

Hi, could yopu explain what you mean by this / which equipment:-

Not all blocks were built and wired in the last few years. Some of the equipment is not up to handling 80,000 watts going in the wrong direction.

As I mentioned, the cabling for the flats will be able to handle far, far more than 800W per property, most houses are in the region of 15-20kW. Do the flats have a max power of 400-800W each? I'd assume more like 10kW(?), but even if averaged for a 5kW draw from each property at the same time, after all a normal kettle alone is 2-3kW, would total 1MW (1,000kW (1,000,000W)).

That's why I mentioned the DNO, perhaps you are confusing the issue with how much export the flats (in total) would be allowed to export. But of course, in your example, it wouldn't be 80kW, as that would be the gross generation, before deducting the demand from the 200 flats.

Reed_Richards

Is there any legal prohibition of a freeholder leaseholder applying unreasonable conditions on a lessee or can the freeholder do whatever they think fit?

Ectophile

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82112967#Comment_82112967

The trick is - don't ask! If you don't ask, they can't say no. Unless the lease was drawn up in the last few years, it won't even mention solar panels. Just avoid attaching the panels in a way that would be against the lease.