Missing Pension Transfer

xylophone

See below. You indicate that you had only one period of contracted out employment, that being the Natwest job.

Is a COPE shown on your record as below?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81412343#Comment_81412343

DRS1

Just one thought on using the Pensions Ombudsman. I believe he would expect you to have tried the Scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure before you go to him. @Marcon suggests they might give you the brush off. If they do then you could at least say something like this in your complaint to the Ombudsman

"I did try to raise this issue with the Scheme using its Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure but I was told I could not in a [letter/email] dated (copy enclosed)."

Marcon

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81996795#Comment_81996795

This is an interesting point. The transfer took place in 1993. At that time a transfer in respect of OP's benefits could only have been made to a scheme which was capable of accepting contracted out benefits - the Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP) element of the NatWest scheme. 

OP has said that after leaving NatWest, they didn't become a member of another pension scheme until joining Pizza Hut's scheme in 1999. Therefore any transfer could only have been to some sort of personal arrangement set up by OP - either:

• a S.32 buy out which would have preserved the GMP entitlement; or
• something known as an 'appropriate' personal pension, which would have converted the GMP to 'Protected Rights'. The word 'appropriate' in this context is pure jargon - it doesn't mean suitable, it just means capable of being used for contracting out purposes. They were being flogged like Smarties at the time by commission-driven salesmen and plenty of people are the proud owners of something they’ve entirely forgotten about…

OP, the plain English version of the above is apply for your SAR then come back here if you need help to interpret once you receive a reply. 

Huskywhisperer

Thanks for all of your responses so far, today I received the SAR request information, 24 hrs it took them, WOW.

Well The plot thickens, according to the SAR the money indeed did transfer in August 1993, however they have stated in the email with the attached file that they hold no " back file " showing where the money went apart from N POTTER esq. They have stated that they don't not know who or what organisation this is and hold no information.

There is no copy of transfer authorisation from myself, no record of who this person is and no record of where it went.

So upon receipt of all of this I have now raised it with the ombudsman to investigate and sent them the whole file I received which includes all of the emails that have recently gone between myself and Natwest.

I guess it's now a case of " watch this space" to see whether the ombudsman believes that there is a case for Natwest to answer........

Huskywhisperer

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81996302#Comment_81996302

Hit the nail on the head, when i received the SAR file the postcode was quoted as CR2 and the postcode now is CR8, Croydon council changed it in the 90's according to Google to accommodate the growing population/house building so thats that mystery solved 😊

dunstonh

Well The plot thickens, according to the SAR the money indeed did transfer in August 1993, however they have stated in the email with the attached file that they hold no " back file " showing where the money went apart from N POTTER esq. They have stated that they don't not know who or what organisation this is and hold no information.

It is not uncommon for records in the early 90s to still be paper-based. When they later became computerised, sometimes the data input wouldn't align correctly. Or it may have been filled with something that probably sounded a good idea at the time but is completely useless now. Often paper faded over the years and some data wouldn't be visual, but some may have been and they input just what they could see. NatWest have almost certainly changed administrators over the years. Probably from in-house to third parties.

It is unlikely that M Potter Esquire would be an HMRC registered pension. However, it may well have been the name of someone who was involved in the transfer process. It may have been an administrator for the receiving scheme, or the ceding scheme, or it could be the advisor's name. So there's no guarantee that the name is going to help in any way.

Whilst going to the Ombudsman is a logical thing for you to do, you need to be prepared for an outcome that is unsatisfactory for you. Ultimately, the ombudsman cannot magically conjure up old data if it no longer exists. It will result in Natwest taking another look, and, on occasion, companies have found data that the first person missed. However, if Natwest repeat the fact that there is no file, which is the statistically most likely outcome you are likely to find the Ombudsman saying there's not much they can do.

NatWest Pension administrators would not be expected to retain data from 33 years ago on a plan that was transferred out.

It is also possible, indeed probable, that you did initiate the transfer but have just forgotten about it. A transfer in 1993 would have resulted in a lot of admin being posted to you and it's from the days of wet signatures and evidence of age and ID would have been needed. So you are receiving a written letter in the post saying your pension transferred out to xyz would have prompted something, assuming that you read your post.

So, whilst this all sounds very pessimistic, I'm just preparing you for an outcome that may not give you the result you're looking for.

Marcon

Have you also applied for a SAR to get your NI history, as suggested in my post of 12 May at 5.21 pm?

Did you ask the scheme for a copy of the IDRP? If you've not attempted to complete that, it's unlikely the Pensions Ombudsman will look at the case until you have tried to do so.

Marcon

Whilst going to the Ombudsman is a logical thing for you to do, you need to be prepared for an outcome that is unsatisfactory for you. Ultimately, the ombudsman cannot magically conjure up old data if it no longer exists. It will result in Natwest taking another look, and, on occasion, companies have found data that the first person missed. However, if Natwest repeat the fact that there is no file, which is the statistically most likely outcome you are likely to find the Ombudsman saying there's not much they can do.

NatWest Pension administrators would not be expected to retain data from 33 years ago on a plan that was transferred out.

I'm a big fan of managing expectations, but have a look at a link I gave earlier in this thread: https://www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk/sites/default/files/decisions/CAS-13126-Z0N2.pdf

It is also possible, indeed probable, that you did initiate the transfer but have just forgotten about it.

In the absence of an error on the part of the scheme, that's the alternative explanation. OP has said they didn't join another (company) scheme until 1999, so there had to be something capable of accepting the transfer in 1993. That's why I suggested that OP should ask for their NI history. I've seen more than one instance of just this sort of complaint dating from this era where someone was sold a minimum payments personal pension (ie one which didn't require them, or their employer, to contribute) - and that would have been capable of accepting a transfer which contained a GMP.

It is unlikely that M Potter Esquire would be an HMRC registered pension. However, it may well have been the name of someone who was involved in the transfer process. It may have been an administrator for the receiving scheme, or even the seating scheme, or it could be the advisor's name. So there's no guarantee that the name is going to help in any way.

Completely agree. What will be worth watching out for (assuming things aren't resolved before then) is the advent of the long-overdue Pensions Dashboard. If the transfer was made, it should show up, possibly as a pension OP doesn't currently know they've got. However, if there's nothing on the dashboard which could conceivably line up with this transfer in 1993, then that would support the idea of an error.

Unfortunately we've still got a long way to go before the dashboard is fully operational, but it's worth keeping in mind.

DRS1

A random thought - OP you weren't by any chance working for a bit of NatWest that got sold off in 92/3 were you? I don't know if any bits were sold off then but I was wondering about a reason you could have been transferred out without signing anything.

xylophone

OP, have you checked for COPE as in my post above?