Solicitor insisting on Land Registry DJP before completion - necessary or overly cautious?

kites44

Hoping for some expert advice on whether my conveyancer is being appropriately cautious or unnecessarily delaying our purchase.

Situation: Buying a property where both previous owners (tenants in common, Form A restriction) have died. Executors have grants of probate and are selling.

The Dispute: Our solicitor says a Land Registry DJP application (noting the deaths) must complete before exchange. She won't proceed without it, citing concerns about registering our ownership and lender's charge.

Seller's solicitor says this isn't legally required - executors have automatic authority under Administration of Estates Act 1925 and Trustee Act 1925, and death certificates/probate are sufficient. They've agreed to apply anyway but warned of 20 weeks processing time (or 10 days if expedited).

What I've Checked:

• UK Finance Mortgage Lenders' Handbook Section 5.2.1 specifically exempts "personal representatives of the registered proprietor" from normal requirements
• Lender (Nationwide) said they defer to the CML Handbook
• Can't get our solicitor to cite specific legal/handbook requirements, just vague warnings about "difficulties"

Questions:

1. Is DJP completion before exchange legally/professionally required, or standard cautious practice?
2. Can executors with probate sell using statutory powers without updating Land Registry title first?
3. What registration problem would Land Registry have with death certificates + probate + statutory trustee powers?
4. If the application is already submitted, can we still complete without waiting for it?

Facing a 4-5 month delay for something that may not be necessary. Would really value insights from anyone with conveyancing experience or similar situations.

Thanks in advance!

EssexHebridean

The 10 day expedition time is likely to be overly cautious - expediting via the LR’s contact for generally pushes things forwards in around 48 hours - although of course any requisitions that arise could still delay it further. 

I can’t think why there would be any issues around registration simply using the certified copies of grant of probate - but perhaps there is something specific in this case that is concerning your solicitor. 

Land_Registry

kites44 said:

Hoping for some expert advice on whether my conveyancer is being appropriately cautious or unnecessarily delaying our purchase.

Situation: Buying a property where both previous owners (tenants in common, Form A restriction) have died. Executors have grants of probate and are selling.

The Dispute: Our solicitor says a Land Registry DJP application (noting the deaths) must complete before exchange. She won't proceed without it, citing concerns about registering our ownership and lender's charge.

Seller's solicitor says this isn't legally required - executors have automatic authority under Administration of Estates Act 1925 and Trustee Act 1925, and death certificates/probate are sufficient. They've agreed to apply anyway but warned of 20 weeks processing time (or 10 days if expedited).

What I've Checked:

• UK Finance Mortgage Lenders' Handbook Section 5.2.1 specifically exempts "personal representatives of the registered proprietor" from normal requirements
• Lender (Nationwide) said they defer to the CML Handbook
• Can't get our solicitor to cite specific legal/handbook requirements, just vague warnings about "difficulties"

Questions:

1. Is DJP completion before exchange legally/professionally required, or standard cautious practice?
2. Can executors with probate sell using statutory powers without updating Land Registry title first?
3. What registration problem would Land Registry have with death certificates + probate + statutory trustee powers?
4. If the application is already submitted, can we still complete without waiting for it?

Facing a 4-5 month delay for something that may not be necessary. Would really value insights from anyone with conveyancing experience or similar situations.

Thanks in advance!

Firstly it' all about the lender providing the mortgage for the buyer and what their process, system and more requires to remove any perceived risks - that may be a reliance on the solicitor involved to be satisfied as to what's happening re the registered information inc joint names (deceased) and the TIC aspect you refer to. The fact that the register has not been updated re the TIC aspect can act as a barrier if the process stalls as a result.

1. every scenario is unique and treated on merit
2. IF the joint owners have died, and there is a form A restriction on the register to protect the TIC, then 2 or more executors for the second deceased owner can transfer/sell for capital monies. If there's just one named executor then the restriction bites 
3. None re death certificate for first joint owner and probate for second. The 'statutory trustee powers' will be linked to the form A restriction/TIC and my answer to 2 answers that
4. You can but again all about the lender and the conveyancer involved. As they wouldn't before submission it seems unlikely that the 'risk' assessment will change until the register is updated
NOTE - expedition will work in the way EssexHebridean explains 

kites44

In a probate sale where two executors are selling and a Form A restriction remains on the title, my solicitor is insisting the seller’s solicitor must give an undertaking to deal with any Land Registry requisitions and removal of the restriction after completion.

The seller’s solicitor has refused, saying it’s unnecessary.

Is it normal for the buyer’s solicitor to require such an undertaking in this situation?

kites44

Land_Registry said:

kites44 said:

Hoping for some expert advice on whether my conveyancer is being appropriately cautious or unnecessarily delaying our purchase.

Situation: Buying a property where both previous owners (tenants in common, Form A restriction) have died. Executors have grants of probate and are selling.

The Dispute: Our solicitor says a Land Registry DJP application (noting the deaths) must complete before exchange. She won't proceed without it, citing concerns about registering our ownership and lender's charge.

Seller's solicitor says this isn't legally required - executors have automatic authority under Administration of Estates Act 1925 and Trustee Act 1925, and death certificates/probate are sufficient. They've agreed to apply anyway but warned of 20 weeks processing time (or 10 days if expedited).

What I've Checked:

• UK Finance Mortgage Lenders' Handbook Section 5.2.1 specifically exempts "personal representatives of the registered proprietor" from normal requirements
• Lender (Nationwide) said they defer to the CML Handbook
• Can't get our solicitor to cite specific legal/handbook requirements, just vague warnings about "difficulties"

Questions:

1. Is DJP completion before exchange legally/professionally required, or standard cautious practice?
2. Can executors with probate sell using statutory powers without updating Land Registry title first?
3. What registration problem would Land Registry have with death certificates + probate + statutory trustee powers?
4. If the application is already submitted, can we still complete without waiting for it?

Facing a 4-5 month delay for something that may not be necessary. Would really value insights from anyone with conveyancing experience or similar situations.

Thanks in advance!

Firstly it' all about the lender providing the mortgage for the buyer and what their process, system and more requires to remove any perceived risks - that may be a reliance on the solicitor involved to be satisfied as to what's happening re the registered information inc joint names (deceased) and the TIC aspect you refer to. The fact that the register has not been updated re the TIC aspect can act as a barrier if the process stalls as a result.

1. every scenario is unique and treated on merit
2. IF the joint owners have died, and there is a form A restriction on the register to protect the TIC, then 2 or more executors for the second deceased owner can transfer/sell for capital monies. If there's just one named executor then the restriction bites 
3. None re death certificate for first joint owner and probate for second. The 'statutory trustee powers' will be linked to the form A restriction/TIC and my answer to 2 answers that
4. You can but again all about the lender and the conveyancer involved. As they wouldn't before submission it seems unlikely that the 'risk' assessment will change until the register is updated
NOTE - expedition will work in the way EssexHebridean explains 

Thanks, that’s helpful.

Can I just check a couple of points?

If two executors are selling and there is a Form A restriction on the title:

1. Does the DJP application have to be completed before exchange or completion?
2. Would the Form A restriction prevent registration of the buyer’s title or lender’s charge, as long as two executors sign the transfer?
3. Is it normal for the Form A restriction to stay on the register until the buyer is registered (i.e. overreached on completion)?

Just want to be sure I understand the LR requirements. Thanks.

Land_Registry

kites44 said:

Land_Registry said:

kites44 said:

Hoping for some expert advice on whether my conveyancer is being appropriately cautious or unnecessarily delaying our purchase.

Situation: Buying a property where both previous owners (tenants in common, Form A restriction) have died. Executors have grants of probate and are selling.

The Dispute: Our solicitor says a Land Registry DJP application (noting the deaths) must complete before exchange. She won't proceed without it, citing concerns about registering our ownership and lender's charge.

Seller's solicitor says this isn't legally required - executors have automatic authority under Administration of Estates Act 1925 and Trustee Act 1925, and death certificates/probate are sufficient. They've agreed to apply anyway but warned of 20 weeks processing time (or 10 days if expedited).

What I've Checked:

• UK Finance Mortgage Lenders' Handbook Section 5.2.1 specifically exempts "personal representatives of the registered proprietor" from normal requirements
• Lender (Nationwide) said they defer to the CML Handbook
• Can't get our solicitor to cite specific legal/handbook requirements, just vague warnings about "difficulties"

Questions:

1. Is DJP completion before exchange legally/professionally required, or standard cautious practice?
2. Can executors with probate sell using statutory powers without updating Land Registry title first?
3. What registration problem would Land Registry have with death certificates + probate + statutory trustee powers?
4. If the application is already submitted, can we still complete without waiting for it?

Facing a 4-5 month delay for something that may not be necessary. Would really value insights from anyone with conveyancing experience or similar situations.

Thanks in advance!

Firstly it' all about the lender providing the mortgage for the buyer and what their process, system and more requires to remove any perceived risks - that may be a reliance on the solicitor involved to be satisfied as to what's happening re the registered information inc joint names (deceased) and the TIC aspect you refer to. The fact that the register has not been updated re the TIC aspect can act as a barrier if the process stalls as a result.

1. every scenario is unique and treated on merit
2. IF the joint owners have died, and there is a form A restriction on the register to protect the TIC, then 2 or more executors for the second deceased owner can transfer/sell for capital monies. If there's just one named executor then the restriction bites 
3. None re death certificate for first joint owner and probate for second. The 'statutory trustee powers' will be linked to the form A restriction/TIC and my answer to 2 answers that
4. You can but again all about the lender and the conveyancer involved. As they wouldn't before submission it seems unlikely that the 'risk' assessment will change until the register is updated
NOTE - expedition will work in the way EssexHebridean explains 

Thanks, that’s helpful.

Can I just check a couple of points?

If two executors are selling and there is a Form A restriction on the title:

1. Does the DJP application have to be completed before exchange or completion?
2. Would the Form A restriction prevent registration of the buyer’s title or lender’s charge, as long as two executors sign the transfer?
3. Is it normal for the Form A restriction to stay on the register until the buyer is registered (i.e. overreached on completion)?

Just want to be sure I understand the LR requirements. Thanks.

1. No as form DJP is a standalone application and IF there's more being applied for then it's not needed. The death is a fact and can be proven at any time by submitting the certified/official copy of the death certificate. And that can be done when the purchase is registered for example - if the conveyancer has concerns then they may ask for the register to be updated before they exchange/complete but you'd have to ask them if that's the case
2. No - as explained if there are two or more executors then that should be ok re form A restriction compliance
3. Yes