TAX ON FULL STATE PENSION APRIL 2027

BlackKnightMonty

QrizB said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Important jobs no doubt. This doesn’t absolve the fact they are net economic drainers. That’s just a statistical fact.

That 53.3% receive more from the State than they contribute is a fact.

Those 53.3% being "net economic drainers" isn't a fact, it's opinion - and a rather unpleasant one, in my opinion.

We have a redistributive system, intended to shift assets from the rich to the poor. Those 53.3% are a sign of the system working.

Now please can someone close this thread? I've reported it three or four times  already for being overly political and non-moneysaving ...

Perhaps the moderators disagree with your assessment?

Auti

But is money saving - look at the way they are saving money - they don’t pay! Sorry - had to be said

sheslookinhot

QrizB said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Important jobs no doubt. This doesn’t absolve the fact they are net economic drainers. That’s just a statistical fact.

That 53.3% receive more from the State than they contribute is a fact.

Those 53.3% being "net economic drainers" isn't a fact, it's opinion - and a rather unpleasant one, in my opinion.

We have a redistributive system, intended to shift assets from the rich to the poor. Those 53.3% are a sign of the system working.

Now please can someone close this thread? I've reported it three or four times  already for being overly political and non-moneysaving ...

I think it’s the other direction of travel.

kinger101

BlackKnightMonty said:

BrilliantButScary said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

german_keeper said:

Up until now I have been really quite proud of what me and my wife have achieved on a relatively low income. She's just gone to bed but I will mention to her tomorrow that we are a net economic drain.  

You are not on your own. Remember 53.3% of all UK households stand with you as net economic drainers.

Well, I am just thinking, is it worth it to get myself banned or this thread closed? Tempting....

What about all the 'net economic drainers' that continued to go out to work during the Covid pandemic? Doing jobs that are 'beneath contempt' in some people's opinion on this thread. 

https://www.jrf.org.uk/work/economic-growth-and-poverty

Important jobs no doubt. This doesn’t absolve the fact they are “net economic drainers”. That’s just a statistical fact.

It would be helpful if HMRC issued a “taxes paid vs benefits and services received” statement to all households. I think there would be quite a few surprises.

What people are saying that while the cost of the services they may receive might be less than the taxes they pay (at that point in time)

It doesn't mean

(A) That does mean thus has been or always will be the case, and

(B) Somehow magically moving them from your simple P&L account would necessarily improve matters.  There are lots of people on low pay because all they they are essential roles in society, they are not well remunerated.

If people can't afford to work as binmen, teaching assistants, transport workers, farm labours, or train as nurses, then how do you imagine society will function.

You could argue the positions will be filled once the wages rise accordingly to assign the correct value to the job.  But we might all end up in exactly the same position after the inflation.

The fact that the 53.5 percent you mention is close to 50 makes me think it's about right 

Moonwolf

BlackKnightMontyp said:

Moonwolf said:

ClashCityRocker1 said:k

BlackKnightMonty said:

MK62 said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

MK62 said:

ewaste said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

I think the SP will have to be taken away as it is unsustainable.

Take too much tax from high earners and they change their behaviour. They migrate to other more welcoming countries, or they cut back on hours so they aren’t in a tax crunching zone like the £100k trap.

If we want growth we need to encourage the most productive to want to work hard. Make sure they are rewarded. That’s the top 10% of income earners. The big economic hitters. The ones who contribute 60.3% of all the income tax paid in the UK. The 10% who alone, contribute 16.2% of the entire tax receipts received by HMG. £184.525bn / £1,132bn)

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/

..........Yes a small minority contribute a majority of tax receipts yet wealth and income inequality is plainly visible in society and continuing to worsen......

The last ONS Wealth and Assets survey estimated that of the total wealth in the UK, around half is held by the top 10%.......the top 50% hold 94%, while the bottom half hold just 6%.........the bottom 10% hold practically zero.....

Quite right too. Why should the bottom half hold any wealth when they are a net economic drain.

Have you ever thought that they might be a "net economic drain" precisely because they have no wealth? 

They are a net economic drain because they take more than they give.

53.3% of all UK households.

A snapshot in time. Retired or sick people might not be paying tax now, but they might have done, and they might again. They might be contributing in non-cash terms, volunteering, caring, playing guitar in the park, who knows? We might need to balance the books, but not everything is about money. 

Also people need more at different stages of life - so when kids are young and they are not yet at peak earning fro example, or later in life when they get frail or ill

The other big drain on everybody is housing costs - not sure what can be done easily to balance that except build a lot of houses/flats.

If somebody is a multi-site landlord and coining it in they might well be paying more tax than they receive but they might well also be squirrelling away wealth and not doing anything useful except putting rent up every 12 months.

I think the 53% figure includes education and health costs as well pensions. While the tax take includes VAT but doesn’t include corporate taxes.

This means that to a certain extent there will be tendency for the figures to suggest that quite a lot of households would generally receive more than they pay out anyway.

Education is probably a public good and overall should help productivity as is a functioning health service.

In addition, I’ve seen a lot of chat recently about how much of the tax burden the top 1% are taking on, without a discussion about the change in pay ratios over the last 50 years or so, or for that matter the big increase in inequality in the 70s and early 80s that hasn’t been corrected. https://www.tomforth.co.uk/incomeandinequality/

Of course the two biggest issues in this country are the lack of willingness to build houses and the lack of investment in the regions. Landlord issues are a symptom of lack of housing rather than the real cause of housing problems (although bringing back MIRAS might rebalance things a bit).

Government spending per person is around £13k per annum.

Once you factor in children, those unable to work, and the retired; that £13k figure is a lot to be raised through taxation.

This is why the 53.3% figure comes about.

But back in 1977 it was only 37%. Why the change? An ageing population combined with a more generous welfare system.

Or perhaps that increase in inequality I pointed out. Health inflation being higher than general inflation.

SacredStephan

kinger101 said:

If people can't afford to work as binmen, teaching assistants, transport workers, farm labours, or train as nurses, then how do you imagine society will function.

Those who have recently trained as nurses are already finding that there are no jobs for them.

MACKEM99

Silvertabby said:

ROG said:

la531983 said:

Yes, this is not old news. It also applies this financial year, not just from 2027 on.

Who gets more than 12570 a year in state pension?

Many people who retired under the old State pension scheme - ie, those with high levels of earnings linked SERPS/SP2 and/or deferral at the old, much more generous rate, of 10% per year.

Admittedly, my neighbour on £24K State pension may be at the higher end of the scale, but there are indeed a lot of pensioners on more than the new single tier rate.

And a lot on much less.

BlackKnightMonty

sheslookinhot said:

QrizB said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Important jobs no doubt. This doesn’t absolve the fact they are net economic drainers. That’s just a statistical fact.

That 53.3% receive more from the State than they contribute is a fact.

Those 53.3% being "net economic drainers" isn't a fact, it's opinion - and a rather unpleasant one, in my opinion.

We have a redistributive system, intended to shift assets from the rich to the poor. Those 53.3% are a sign of the system working.

Now please can someone close this thread? I've reported it three or four times  already for being overly political and non-moneysaving ...

I think it’s the other direction of travel.

GINI coefficient says otherwise.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householdincomeinequalityfinancial/financialyearending2024

BlackKnightMonty

Interesting charts from the FT:

MACKEM99

ClashCityRocker1 said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

MK62 said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

MK62 said:

ewaste said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

I think the SP will have to be taken away as it is unsustainable.

Take too much tax from high earners and they change their behaviour. They migrate to other more welcoming countries, or they cut back on hours so they aren’t in a tax crunching zone like the £100k trap.

If we want growth we need to encourage the most productive to want to work hard. Make sure they are rewarded. That’s the top 10% of income earners. The big economic hitters. The ones who contribute 60.3% of all the income tax paid in the UK. The 10% who alone, contribute 16.2% of the entire tax receipts received by HMG. £184.525bn / £1,132bn)

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/

..........Yes a small minority contribute a majority of tax receipts yet wealth and income inequality is plainly visible in society and continuing to worsen......

The last ONS Wealth and Assets survey estimated that of the total wealth in the UK, around half is held by the top 10%.......the top 50% hold 94%, while the bottom half hold just 6%.........the bottom 10% hold practically zero.....

Quite right too. Why should the bottom half hold any wealth when they are a net economic drain.

Have you ever thought that they might be a "net economic drain" precisely because they have no wealth? 

They are a net economic drain because they take more than they give.

53.3% of all UK households.

A snapshot in time. Retired or sick people might not be paying tax now, but they might have done, and they might again. They might be contributing in non-cash terms, volunteering, caring, playing guitar in the park, who knows? We might need to balance the books, but not everything is about money. 

Also people need more at different stages of life - so when kids are young and they are not yet at peak earning fro example, or later in life when they get frail or ill

The other big drain on everybody is housing costs - not sure what can be done easily to balance that except build a lot of houses/flats.

If somebody is a multi-site landlord and coining it in they might well be paying more tax than they receive but they might well also be squirrelling away wealth and not doing anything useful except putting rent up every 12 months.

And providing housing.