Struggling to secure permanent promotion - Civil Service

Emmia

tinkafairy said:

I think I naively thought that achieving something that the minister and senior leadership wanted would have helped me? 

The Minister is a political appointment, and they quite rightly have nothing to do with the recruitment of civil servants, only Special Advisors who move on with the Minister are appointed in this way. 

I think you thought you'd get a tap on the shoulder for promotion, but that's not how the CS works. Non hiring managers have no sway. Even if that was how it worked, you might not be "favoured" or you'd be thought of as indispensable in your current role, and so would be blocked or would languish. The advantage of the CS is that you do have a route to achieve promotion without the input of managers.

TELLIT01

The Pensions Minister visited the office I worked at.  He was brutally honest about the effectiveness of Ministers, or otherwise.  He said appointments rarely last more than 3 years so the first year is getting a proper understanding of the role and the current plan, the second is trying to either implement the previous plan or convince others that your plan is better, and the third is jostling for promotion.  He added that any Minister who actually wants to stay in a role is viewed by many as a failure.

It all helps to explain why it's such a mess at ministerial level.

Emmia

tinkafairy said:

I just can't sleep now. I keep re-running everything. I'm just so down. And it's not like I can take time off to recoup. I need to secure a substantive post by the end of August. There are very few being advertised, and my confidence of getting anything in my own department is nonexistent now. 

I work so hard, everyone complements what I do and says how key I am. But when it comes to the crunch there's never a job there to back it up. It seems people who do less, get better rewards because they have time to work on getting through the application/ interview process. 

@tinkafairy Why do you need to secure a substantive post by the end of August? Is it because of financial commitments you have taken on the temporary promotion, expecting to be appointed permanently?  Or are you on a fixed term appointment, so failing to get a permanent job means you're out on your ear?

My top tip is to be on annual leave on the day of the interview - do not go into the office or log in to work beforehand... Things always crop up that disrupt your preparations for what is an important meeting.

Ideally sit the interview on your own laptop (if it's on teams) to avoid work distractions.

lincroft1710

This is not personal, but an observation from another (long ex) CS.


There were always people who you could more or less trust to hold the fort for a short time in a crisis. But they were not necessarily people you would want there permanently. The CS is again being squeezed, so interviewers know they have to now find the absolute very best and there must have been something about your interview performance that didn't display this. Or there was something they were looking for that they didn't see in you.


I will also add (and I hope it has changed since my day) that some interviewers don't appear to have a clue and however practised they appear to be are themselves lacking in certain qualities

barbuda

Blimey gm0....

 If you find yourself in a "useful SME trap...
 Now that's more a 123 problem than a 6,7 appointment problem....
 A squeakier ambitious extrovert generalist wheel....
The flexible expert problem solver trap....
 It's a hot culture war button......

I'm sure it all makes perfect sense to you Civil Servants 
hmmm..not sure about anyone else though ;-)
A little bit alphabet soupy to me but I suppose when in Rome...

Emmia

barbuda said:

Blimey gm0....

 If you find yourself in a "useful SME trap...
 Now that's more a 123 problem than a 6,7 appointment problem....
 A squeakier ambitious extrovert generalist wheel....
The flexible expert problem solver trap....
 It's a hot culture war button......

I'm sure it all makes perfect sense to you Civil Servants 
hmmm..not sure about anyone else though ;-)
A little bit alphabet soupy to me but I suppose when in Rome...

I am a civil servant and it also made no sense to me.

Marcon

gm0 said:

There are some harsh realities in play.  Promotion selection in many cultures can be affected by lots of different factors. 

Prior demonstration of competence/capability/experience and readiness via secondment to more responsibilities for next level management or leadership being a small part. But not definitive in achieving selection.  Theoretically table stakes but not always.  And regularly not the overriding thing.

Many things get overlaid.  It isn't entirely fair.  Nor does it say fair on the tin.  Even if people naively have expectations of the process that it should be - either for a version of "fair" as they understand it i.e a personal world view - be it meritocracy on prior output, or DEI goals to right past wrongs.  Perceived fairness is personal around the individual decision and weighting and collective. Or it's a system perception from reading the HR manual platitudes - which just may not be honoured entirely in the live process.  It will be flexible enough to get the answer that is wanted.  The SCS one certainly is.

I am saying that a "reasonable adjustments" lens - that they are not walking the talk on that - is fine so far as it goes around interview and appointment. I am not suggesting that it isn't a factor here. Just that there is more.  And over focusing just on that may not in fact help you achieve what you want.

Subjectively particular 4s, 5s and 6s may take a view that another candidate - incidentally one without your RA requirements is preferable. To them. Because they have options - sufficiently equally qualified with different strengths and weaknesses, or candidate X broadens team diversity at level - so identity mix thumbs on the scales - or whatever it is.  Preferable.  If they can justify that choice from the selection offered within process and criteria and have the form filling lined up. Off they go.  Job done. No foul.  You remain a good and useful T/Prin, substantive HEO/SEO (in old money) with some well known strengths (and weaknesses). Very useful.  

SSC blended internal and external recruiting is particularly bizarre if you are used to corporate.  Been there. Done that.

Let's unpack a few other overarching influencers on preferred candidates.

Identity has skewed selection weightings. Applying discrimination just in a different slant - to progress the identity targets you want.  Obviously this can work for or against you based on your identity, situation and the organisation demographics at target level.   It's not the substantive point of discussion here. But an example of an overarching "reweighting" in flight criteria. It's a hot culture war button so let's not get into the rights and wrongs and subtleties of it here.  It's a planned thing. It happens.  The processes have sufficient flexibility to allow it.

Much more common is the strong desirability of keeping highly effective cheaper experienced "worker bees" especially expert, flexible sweepers - doing what they do well.  

Promote an SME "doing a job" rather than "managing" without doing as much of what they used to do.  Generic team leader capable duffers I have plenty.  Actual SMEs not so much.  The flexible expert problem solver trap.

If holding them back can be achieved without them exiting the organisation in a huff.  It's a good answer.  For the boss. And the organisation.  You let and encourage them to take a run at promotions as it helps keep them believing it's possible and is good practice.  And because it's policy and the right thing to do - and to support them as one of your staff.  But you don't lift too much of a finger to make the inconvenient (to you) thing happen where they exit on and up.  Hard to backfill.  Meanwhile they do their job and secondments well. And they don't get a promotion.  And they don't leave.   The numbers are a bit better if you aren't fully paying them (CS and private sector can vary on this one).  A squeakier ambitious extrovert generalist wheel albeit a less useful one day to day gets the promotion. And the SME is sad - but returns to work.

From the organisation's perspective the SME is harder to replace.  And this outcome is a win.  For the SME it becomes an unwelcome pattern which repeats.  The leader should of course be working on the team with the SME on apprentices around various activities.  To make them easier to lose. Nobody is really indispensable. But that doesn't make losing your key workers convenient either.

On this - a long time ago I had a conversation with senior leaders in an organisation where I worked about this very thing. As I reviewed my (significant) achievements and my own ongoing career blockages.  And the apparent disconnect between what I had achieved and future rewards.  In the end it came down to "because we can".  We know you enjoy your job here and likely "won't leave".  You lack credibility on that threat.  And are useful doing what you do. So.....we respond to the incentives as they are.

Believing the process was "fair" and had integrity on a what have you achieved and demonstrate dimension was *my* mistake of misunderstanding and not keeping them awake at night.  My persistent naivety in the face of knockbacks was in fact slightly amusing.  Going around believing in stated core values like that. Repeating the same behaviour and expecting a different result. Bless.

In gaming circles people talk about the "meta" - as a term for the embedded rules that underpin a particular (apparent) visible system.  

Presenting yourself credibly as a flight risk (if thwarted), motivated and ambitious, qualified at next level, not too essential where you are.  Requires a thoughtful approach to the meta, and the influencing and deciding audience. It's a game.  Culture does vary this a bit but some aspects are universal.  

Aside from corporate experiences.  I've been through the full process myself for senior civil service appointment at 3.  Panel interview with independent non civvie NEDS and the civil service commissioners.  

They picked the wrong shortlist.  Wasted my time extensively over multiple steps.  And recommended the wrong person (not me as it goes) so Cabinet Office just cancelled the entire appointment process at the end and overrode the department.  Wasting everyone's time. All candidates. Officials.  NEDs the lot.  And then slipped in another golden child external candidate they liked - entirely outside of the process.  The CS Commissioners just sat and watched the integrity of the process they apparently supervise burn and warmed their hands.  Why they turn up and waste everyone's time with the little integrity speech beats me.

Nobody kicks off about UK gov stuff like that in a politically directed world.  You might want to work in this town again temp or perm.  I'm retired now. So now don't care about telling the anecdote.  An old perm sec I know just laughed at my story and said ah X likes to run the process forwards. Sweet. The other captains do rather tend to start with the answer and run the process to colour the required paperwork to get to it.   Now that's more a 123 problem than a 6,7 appointment problem.  But you need to lift the lid on the mechanism.

I am sure the challenges you face with interview around the day job are real for you.  As an analytic and introvert personality type but not diagnosed with anything specific.  I am not particularly interview gifted either at concisely blowing my own trumpet as loud as possible tailored to audience and their checklist.  While reacting in the panel session.  I need to prepare quite a lot. Talking points in short term memory for anticipated Qs - and general question areas I plan to redirect to a humble brag example (criteria focused talking points) - utterly shamelessly like a politician in the media. All pruned viciously for brevity. Interviews are a special hell for most. of us.  

A few people are quick verbally and charismatic and shameless.  And yes - it has little to do with ability to do *most* jobs day to day.  Verbal skills under pressure do matter and matter more for management roles heavier on communication but do get overweighted by this process. And so what.

Finally - the more constraints you apply to where the opportunities need to be - the smaller the opportunity pool becomes.  I would not relocate to India/China.  Their relevant needs were there not here.  My constraints were here not there.  My choice to prioritise family over career. That decision you have control over.  And it sounds like you know your priorities.  But they don't owe you an ideal next level job - and only in the location you want. Nobody does.  It may work out. It may not

So Meta.  Checklist. Criteria used by assessors.  Game focus.  Step back.  Treat the process less literally and less seriously - with more of the contempt it *richly* deserves - just don't let that contempt show.  

Try to relax into it - and project confidence. Even though it's hard.  If you find yourself in a "useful SME trap". Then a move to a post which provides a reset with a carefully chosen boss - may be a way to break the cage.

Good luck

Could you condense into a couple of sentences, perhaps - and ones which OP might find helpful, bearing in mind their ADHD, ASD, and dyslexia? The nuggets of wisdom are currently buried a bit too far down for the rest of us to fathom, so I imagine OP hasn't a hope!

RedFraggle

I'm an SCS1 with a disabled marker and reasonable adjustments in place. I've never been discriminated against because of my RAs.
I interview a lot at roles from SEO up to G6. The biggest failing I see is lack of demonstrating a competence through not enough detail of what was done in what way and directly by the candidate.
Within the "star model"....
Situation/Task is the scene setter l. This should have enough detail so the panel can see it's relevant to the skill/behaviour/knowledge they're looking for.
Action: this should be the bulk of the answer, what did you directly do, exactly how, liaising with what grades, using what tools, skills, behaviours. That's where you sell yourself. The hardest part is working out which skills/knowledge/behaviours the question is targeting.
Result: what happened, it closes the loop.
I see a lot of candidates that sound like they could be great but they just don't evidence it.
Hope this helps 

MayDogsandCoffee

In Civil Service at the moment there are recruitment restrictions in many departments.  Not sure which department you are in or county but quite often if you are not near a HQ it is more difficult to get a promotion, the higher you go the less opportunities, some areas will have one SEO, in others that grade is 'teaboy'.  Sometimes it is a case of researching which department is recruiting the grade you want to be, getting in there and then moving back to the department you want after a couple of years.

tinkafairy

Emmia said:

tinkafairy said:

Spikeygran said:

If they are not making reasonable adjustments at interview for your diagnosed issues, surely thats discrimination?

You must have been the best choice for the temporary promotion and if you have had awards and good feedback you are obviously capable of holding the position.  Would it help to have a chat to HR or an independent advisor, union maybe if your a member?   

Can you look for positions in a different department? 

I've looked at other departments, but many only offer the sort of roles that I am doing/ looking for out of London. I'm not London-based and we can't afford to move our family to London. I have applied for and been on reserve lists for other departments -- but a few are/ were facing recruitment freezes so the reserve list expired. I know I'm well liked and thought of, and often 'borrowed' by some key central departments when they need some extra help. But most do not have permanent posts that can be worked from outside Whitehall. And the few that do, their main non- London offices are nowhere near where I live. 

There's a big push to regionalise the Civil Service currently, but that is focused on city hubs in places like Darlington, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham - so you need really to be living within commuting distance of one of those places. I'd say that Whitehall is a tricky place at the moment for building a CS career because of this push.

Not to be too outing but I'm more south Wales/ south west region based. But I've been covering a role usually done out of London.