Challenging tax band - how much info is enough?

cardia

Hello all! I'm hoping some of you with experience of challenges might be able to provide a view if this info is enough, or if i should just stick to the top two properties? 

We moved into our property in 2022 which was built by the previous owner, and missed the opportunity to challenge the band. We are a band G. Its only after a few years and issues with the property i've been able to better pin down its build dates etc which is why i am here now after nearly 3 years.
The house was a 'barn conversion' although i suspect this is limited to one wall, and built to the footprint of what was once a barn on the land of a much larger manor house. This house was built circa 1980s although VOA has it down as Age: C - 1919-1929  (i'm adding this but im not sure if it is ultimately relevant, or even something we want to touch?).

I think we were given a band G because the next door 1800s Manor house is a G, next door is also 30Sqm larger with a lot of land, we dont have much of a garden/outdoor space. We are northwest in a Rural town (more rural than town with lots of farms and older building circa 1800s) so properties vary a lot on our street and similar properties can be a little further away. I have been able to find the following properties which i think are more similar:

Distance mi (circa direct line)	Type		Size difference (SqM)	Current Band	1991 value band
0.49	Farm House		plus 8%	E	D
0.7	Detached		minus 5%	E	F
0.78	Detached		Same	F	F
1.62	Detached		minus 13%	F	F
1.77	Detached		minus 8%	F	F

I guess my questions are:
1) would you use all of these, or are the first two enough?
2) Does comparing age really matter, as i struggle to find this information
3) am i missing anything else that would support this review request?

I really appreciate any info/guidance/experience you are happy to share.

MattMattMattUK

cardia said:

Hello all! I'm hoping some of you with experience of challenges might be able to provide a view if this info is enough, or if i should just stick to the top two properties? 

We moved into our property in 2022 which was built by the previous owner, and missed the opportunity to challenge the band. We are a band G. Its only after a few years and issues with the property i've been able to better pin down its build dates etc which is why i am here now after nearly 3 years.
The house was a 'barn conversion' although i suspect this is limited to one wall, and built to the footprint of what was once a barn on the land of a much larger manor house. This house was built circa 1980s although VOA has it down as Age: C - 1919-1929  (i'm adding this but im not sure if it is ultimately relevant, or even something we want to touch?).

I think we were given a band G because the next door 1800s Manor house is a G, next door is also 30Sqm larger with a lot of land, we dont have much of a garden/outdoor space. We are northwest in a Rural town (more rural than town with lots of farms and older building circa 1800s) so properties vary a lot on our street and similar properties can be a little further away. I have been able to find the following properties which i think are more similar:

Distance mi (circa direct line)	Type		Size difference (SqM)	Current Band	1991 band
0.49	Farm House		plus 8%	E	D
0.7	Detached		minus 5%	E	F
0.78	Detached		Same	F	F
1.62	Detached		minus 13%	F	F
1.77	Detached		minus 8%	F	F

I guess my questions are:
1) would you use all of these, or are the first two enough?
2) Does comparing age really matter, as i struggle to find this information
3) am i missing anything else that would support this review request?

I really appreciate any info/guidance/experience you are happy to share.

You can only challenge the banding by law for the first six months you are paying council tax at the property. You have been paying it for three years, so you are unable to challenge the banding via a legal right. You can still request a review, but those are almost universally rejected. 

https://www.gov.uk/challenge-council-tax-band/legal-right-to-make-a-challenge

When it comes to asking (rather than challenging) the council tax banding what are the respective values of those properties currently, as well as their size and banding?

cardia

MattMattMattUK said:

cardia said:

Hello all! I'm hoping some of you with experience of challenges might be able to provide a view if this info is enough, or if i should just stick to the top two properties? 

We moved into our property in 2022 which was built by the previous owner, and missed the opportunity to challenge the band. We are a band G. Its only after a few years and issues with the property i've been able to better pin down its build dates etc which is why i am here now after nearly 3 years.
The house was a 'barn conversion' although i suspect this is limited to one wall, and built to the footprint of what was once a barn on the land of a much larger manor house. This house was built circa 1980s although VOA has it down as Age: C - 1919-1929  (i'm adding this but im not sure if it is ultimately relevant, or even something we want to touch?).

I think we were given a band G because the next door 1800s Manor house is a G, next door is also 30Sqm larger with a lot of land, we dont have much of a garden/outdoor space. We are northwest in a Rural town (more rural than town with lots of farms and older building circa 1800s) so properties vary a lot on our street and similar properties can be a little further away. I have been able to find the following properties which i think are more similar:

Distance mi (circa direct line)	Type		Size difference (SqM)	Current Band	1991 band
0.49	Farm House		plus 8%	E	D
0.7	Detached		minus 5%	E	F
0.78	Detached		Same	F	F
1.62	Detached		minus 13%	F	F
1.77	Detached		minus 8%	F	F

I guess my questions are:
1) would you use all of these, or are the first two enough?
2) Does comparing age really matter, as i struggle to find this information
3) am i missing anything else that would support this review request?

I really appreciate any info/guidance/experience you are happy to share.

You can only challenge the banding by law for the first six months you are paying council tax at the property. You have been paying it for three years, so you are unable to challenge the banding via a legal right. You can still request a review, but those are almost universally rejected. 

https://www.gov.uk/challenge-council-tax-band/legal-right-to-make-a-challenge

When it comes to asking (rather than challenging) the council tax banding what are the respective values of those properties currently, as well as their size and banding?

Hi MattMattMattUK,

Thanks for the reply. I should have been clearer in my post, i understand it wont be a challenge but a request to review. In answer to your question, all of the listed properties are worth the same as or higher than our property (none are less), i did add the size and band to my original post, or is there something else missing?

lincroft1710

If the "Farmhouse" is part of a working farm, you cannot use this as CT bands for dwellings occupied in connection with non domestic property (e.g. shop or farm) are calculated on a different basis and some farmhouses have an Agricultural Occupation Restriction which will lower the value.


CT did not come into force until 1 April 1993, so there were no bands in 1991.


Where did you obtain the sizes from as the VOA use Gross External Area measurements whereas estate agents and EPC sizes tend to be based on Gross Internal Area which will be smaller. Also where have you obtained current property values from, of they were not sales.VOA will not accept house price calculator values.

If you are claiming your home is basically a 1980s property with one much older wall,then you really should look for similar size properties from say the 1960s up to 2000s

cardia

lincroft1710 said:

If the "Farmhouse" is part of a working farm, you cannot use this as CT bands for dwellings occupied in connection with non domestic property (e.g. shop or farm) are calculated on a different basis and some farmhouses have an Agricultural Occupation Restriction which will lower the value.


CT did not come into force until 1 April 1993, so there were no bands in 1991.


Where did you obtain the sizes from as the VOA use Gross External Area measurements whereas estate agents and EPC sizes tend to be based on Gross Internal Area which will be smaller. Also where have you obtained current property values from, of they were not sales.VOA will not accept house price calculator values.

If you are claiming your home is basically a 1980s property with one much older wall,then you really should look for similar size properties from say the 1960s up to 2000s

Hi lincroft1710, thanks for the reply.

The farmhouse is one of a few properties that look like they were part of a larger farm, but has now split out as multiple "farmhouses", a cottage and some other specific farm buildings.

The farmhouse in this instance is standalone with no working land or farm, so I assumed they had a historic single band reduction in this basis? All of the buildings have separate sales transactions on the land registry.

I used the gov website for the council tax bands based on 1991 values here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understand-how-council-tax-bands-are-assessed#council-tax-bands-in-england-based-on-1-april-1991-values

The measurements were obtained from various data sources available through either historical property advertisement or online sales sites, so all internal.

The values were from a combination of historical sales prices available on land registry and other property websites. These were then used with the Nationwide house index price calculator to get the "1991" estimate, and then compared to the bandings in the above gov.uk link.

Hope that clarifies? I realize a lot of this information wasn't in my original post but I wasn't sure what would be relevant.

lincroft1710

cardia said:

lincroft1710 said:

If the "Farmhouse" is part of a working farm, you cannot use this as CT bands for dwellings occupied in connection with non domestic property (e.g. shop or farm) are calculated on a different basis and some farmhouses have an Agricultural Occupation Restriction which will lower the value.


CT did not come into force until 1 April 1993, so there were no bands in 1991.


Where did you obtain the sizes from as the VOA use Gross External Area measurements whereas estate agents and EPC sizes tend to be based on Gross Internal Area which will be smaller. Also where have you obtained current property values from, of they were not sales.VOA will not accept house price calculator values.

If you are claiming your home is basically a 1980s property with one much older wall,then you really should look for similar size properties from say the 1960s up to 2000s

The measurements were obtained from various data sources available through either historical property advertisement or online sales sites, so all internal.

The values were from a combination of historical sales prices available on land registry and other property websites. These were then used with the Nationwide house index price calculator to get the "1991" estimate, and then compared to the bandings in the above gov.uk link.

Hope that clarifies? I realize a lot of this information wasn't in my original post but I wasn't sure what would be relevant.

Sorry to say I don't think any of this will be acceptable to the VOA. From personal experience (ex VOA) NW HPI is particularly unreliable in calculating 1991 values.

cardia

lincroft1710 said:

cardia said:

lincroft1710 said:

If the "Farmhouse" is part of a working farm, you cannot use this as CT bands for dwellings occupied in connection with non domestic property (e.g. shop or farm) are calculated on a different basis and some farmhouses have an Agricultural Occupation Restriction which will lower the value.


CT did not come into force until 1 April 1993, so there were no bands in 1991.


Where did you obtain the sizes from as the VOA use Gross External Area measurements whereas estate agents and EPC sizes tend to be based on Gross Internal Area which will be smaller. Also where have you obtained current property values from, of they were not sales.VOA will not accept house price calculator values.

If you are claiming your home is basically a 1980s property with one much older wall,then you really should look for similar size properties from say the 1960s up to 2000s

The measurements were obtained from various data sources available through either historical property advertisement or online sales sites, so all internal.

The values were from a combination of historical sales prices available on land registry and other property websites. These were then used with the Nationwide house index price calculator to get the "1991" estimate, and then compared to the bandings in the above gov.uk link.

Hope that clarifies? I realize a lot of this information wasn't in my original post but I wasn't sure what would be relevant.

Sorry to say I don't think any of this will be acceptable to the VOA. From personal experience (ex VOA) NW HPI is particularly unreliable in calculating 1991 values.

Thank you. Is there anything else you would suggest I can do for HPI, or other data that might be more acceptable?

lincroft1710

Although the VOA say they will look at actual evidence of house sales around 1991submitted to them, there is no such evidence in the public domain prior to 1994/5. Even if you could find such evidence, as the VOA have details of 99.99% of all sold property prices in England and Wales going back well before 1991, it is doubtful you could find anything which would substantially support your case. If you do, remember that in many parts of the country 1994/95 values were around 25% lower than 1991. So you would have to adjust the sale price to see if it would indicate a value below £160K in 1991 to be of any use to you.


I would repeat what I said in an earlier post, look for similar size properties from say the 1960s up to 2000s in Band F or G (Band G properties would indicate your band may be correct) and widen your search area.


Finally as a matter of interest, if you divide your 2022 purchase price by £160,000 what is the result please?

cardia

Thanks. I appreciate that, How do others submit evidence of values without access to sales pre 1994/5? I went off the guidance which talks about finding the sales records for similar properties to then estimate their value, to the compare against mine. Is this the wrong approach?

Continuing my research on properties, I release I can look further away (up to 10miles) which I will do.

In answer to your question, 3.7. Is there a ratio you would go off as a rule of thumb?

lincroft1710

They don't. They can only submit details of 1994 sales onwards and hope that when the VOA adjusts them to 1991 values it proves their case.


3.7 is a bit low, although I am going on the area I live in which is many miles to the south