Anyone with any experience of MP Estate planning?

Emmia

JingleBells555 said:

Curiosity getting the better part... I had to see if my previous post from this morning had been removed.
And it looks like it's missing.
I dont' think I've contravened any rules. No politics. Nothing personal. Referenced research that took me hours to find. All gone.
And it took me weeks to make my decision, and hours of research.
And I haven't heard anything back about the Gray's Inn article.
I honestly thought this would be helpful and I'm happy to be shown the error in my research.
Any advice on having a post remain up would be greatly appreciated.

 

Post on things which are not controversial, and develop your reputation.

I will be honest that I was one of those who marked your posts as spam, they read as marketing masquerading as personal recommendation.

JingleBells555

Emmia said:

JingleBells555 said:

Curiosity getting the better part... I had to see if my previous post from this morning had been removed.
And it looks like it's missing.
I dont' think I've contravened any rules. No politics. Nothing personal. Referenced research that took me hours to find. All gone.
And it took me weeks to make my decision, and hours of research.
And I haven't heard anything back about the Gray's Inn article.
I honestly thought this would be helpful and I'm happy to be shown the error in my research.
Any advice on having a post remain up would be greatly appreciated.

 

Post on things which are not controversial, and develop your reputation.

I will be honest that I was one of those who marked your posts as spam, they read as marketing masquerading as personal recommendation.

Thank you for the honesty. I was responding to the initial question as it took me quite a bit of time and energy to figure this all out. I honestly thought I was being helpful.
I've only just joined MSE as this was a big decision for me and my family, and it took me a bit of effort to arrive at my decision.
I was surprised to find I'd been shut down, but take on board your point about marketing.
I thought the research I'd found was interesting and potentially helpful.
Of course, everyone should make up their own mind.

Has anyone actually read the Gray's Inn article?
I tried to post the link, but being a newbie, I do not have those permissions.

QrizB

JingleBells555 said:

Has anyone actually read the Gray's Inn article?
I tried to post the link, but being a newbie, I do not have those permissions.

I Google'd it (and DuckDuckGo'd it) but couldn't find it.

ali_bear

The forum is experiencing some technical difficulties today, it is possible your contribution was lost in the cyber maelstrom. 

JingleBells555

I will try and post the link spread out.
https  taxbar  .com/  wp-content/  uploads/  2016/01/  Giving_Away_Part_of_the_Family_Home_to_Avoid_IHT_Whilst_Continuing_to_Live_There_Patric.pdf

poseidon1

JingleBells555 said:

I will try and post the link spread out.
https  taxbar  .com/  wp-content/  uploads/  2016/01/  Giving_Away_Part_of_the_Family_Home_to_Avoid_IHT_Whilst_Continuing_to_Live_There_Patric.pdf

The essence of what P Soares wrote in 2014, is a relatively straight forward exemption as set out in the general article below ( note the caveats however):

https://foresightwills.co.uk/lifetime-giving-can-i-give-my-home-to-my-children-and-still-live-in-it/#:~:text=If one or more children,the percentage is too large.

The comparatively rare circumstance where the donee child ( post gift) continuously occupies the family home as their residence  and contributes their share to the ongoing domestic running costs of the home until death of the donor parent, is relatively uncontroversial. In this scenario no requirement for parent to pay rent for their continued occupation thereby also avoiding  POAT.

However,  Soares  aggressively goes a stage further.  He suggests a gift of a share of the home  to a child who has their own residence elsewhere and merely returns to the parent's home at weekends could nonetheless still claim the gift avoids GROB rules subject to surviving 7 years post gift. Respectfully, I would consider that nonsense and almost certainly challenged by HMRC on death of the donor.

Professionally, P Soares would not have been my choice of legal counsel for referral on high value Estate planning matters, far preferring the likes of Robert Venerables KC , Richard Vallat KC, or the honorable Emma Chamberlain. If you are not in the high value category ( £2 million plus ), probably shouldn't be messing around with any complex planning relating to the family home anyway.

However, if you have convinced yourself of the validity of P Soares'  'arguments' good luck to you, you won't be around to argue the merits of your planning when the time comes!

JingleBells555

Thank you @poseidon1
I don't have the pleasure of knowing any of the listed individuals.
I rely on plain old research.
The secondary piece of this puzzle for me, was the discovery that the planning was TESTED in Ingram v Commissioners (1999).
To my mind, this means the law FA 86 s102b is 39 years old and proven 26 years ago.
It gives me much more confidence when a law has been tested. 
Which is why I stated in my initial message that I had done research to understand this planning.
I like tested law. It removes the element of opinion.
Keen to hear from anyone that has done the research as well.

poseidon1

JingleBells555 said:

Thank you @poseidon1
I don't have the pleasure of knowing any of the listed individuals.
I rely on plain old research.
The secondary piece of this puzzle for me, was the discovery that the planning was TESTED in Ingram v Commissioners (1999).
To my mind, this means the law FA 86 s102b is 39 years old and proven 26 years ago.
It gives me much more confidence when a law has been tested. 
Which is why I stated in my initial message that I had done research to understand this planning.
I like tested law. It removes the element of opinion.
Keen to hear from anyone that has done the research as well.

Ingram case involved two distinct  operations and bears no resemblance at all to the P Soares proposition, so curious that you have conflated the two. The operations were:

1) In 1987 Lady Ingram carved out a 20 year lease of her 61 acre country estate  in her own favour using her solicitor as a nominee grantor for the purpose. 

2) She created an interest in possession trust with her children/grandchildren as IIP beneficiaries, and conveyed the freehold estate ( subject to her overriding lease ) to the trustees. At that time this constituted a potentially exempt transfer for IHT purposes.

She died a couple of years later. Despite the artificial nature of the scheme, it was ultimately upheld as effective by the House Lords on appeal in avoiding GROB.

Could Ingram work today?

Firstly since  Finance Act 2006, all gifts into lifetime settlements   ( whether IIP or discretionary) are chargeable to IHT at 20% on the value of the trust asset which exceeds the settlor's nil rate band. The charge is topped up by a further 20% if the settlor dies within 7 years.

Secondly Pre owned assets tax introduced in 2005 ( as a result of the fallout from the Eversden case) would in all likelihood be applied to the rent free leasehold carve out, thereby attributing to the lessee a  market annual rent for the leasehold interest upon which income tax would be charged. The quantum of rent would no doubt be mitigated by the requirement to insure and maintain the property under the lease terms, but still a substantial figure.

Therefore if you are hanging your hat on an Ingram type lease carve out/ trust gift of freehold  continuing to be  effective IHT avoidance , notwithstanding subsequent statutory changes to the Iht regime for trusts and the introduction of POAT, then there appears to be a rather large gap in your research.  By concerntrating on case law you appear to  have entirely overlooked  a raft of anti avoidance legislation designed to address these artificial schemes. 

Other than IPDI trusts established on death, most MSE forum members would wisely  avoid the creation of most forms of  lifetime trusts like the plague,  still you appear to derive some  pleasure in delving into  the more archane aspects of estate planning so I won't discourage your efforts, but doubt you will find any similarly enthusiastic researchers on this forum.