Pension Fund Choices - Waverton and Quilter

Groover24

After my unfortunate dealings with SJP I am looking at moving the fund elesewhere. Two that I have been given are Waverton and Quilter Wealth Select 7.

They look good on the face of it, but the Quilter fund seems to have a heck of a lot of funds under the one umbrella. Is this good? Once bitten, twice shy!

Would either of this be a good choice? Comments are appreciated

MeteredOut

Are you sure you want to go with another wealth manager, rather than an IFA or even DIY with trackers/ETFs?

I don't know anything about either of those two, but my immediate thought is why my gran used to say: Out of the frying pan into the fire.

dunstonh

After my unfortunate dealings with SJP I am looking at moving the fund elesewhere. Two that I have been given are Waverton and Quilter Wealth Select 7.

Neither do it for me.   That is like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.    
Quilter portfolios are generally for Quilter sales agents.   They are available to IFAs but are less likely to be used as IFAs have better options. You don't say which wealth select range it is (there are several depending on the theme, and most of the themes are expensive. One is not too bad, but it's still not the best in class).

You also don't say which Waverton, but assuming the one with the same risk profile as the Quilter, it's also expensive.

Both MPS ranges are generally aimed at restricted FAs operating a Wealth Management business model similar to SJP.   They are available to IFAs as well, and I know one regional IFA in our area that uses the Waverton range, but due to that firm being a larger one, they don't give their IFAs the choice as it's controlled centrally who they can use.  

There is worse.    But there is better.     And remember, investing is as much about opinion as facts (and timing and where you are in a cycle).

Linton

Groover24 said:

After my unfortunate dealings with SJP I am looking at moving the fund elesewhere. Two that I have been given are Waverton and Quilter Wealth Select 7.

They look good on the face of it, but the Quilter fund seems to have a heck of a lot of funds under the one umbrella. Is this good? Once bitten, twice shy!

Would either of this be a good choice? Comments are appreciated

If you feel bitten by SJP why are you going for apparently similar companies? From  their websites I dont see that either Waverton or Quilter are IFAs.  I suggest you could be better off,  both in terms of costs and guaranteed independence, talking to a small local IFA business who would be focussed on providing appropriate advice for your needs rather than selling their company's products.

There is no problem with a multi-asset fund holding a large number of other funds.  Amongst other reasons the providers of the secondary funds may not want a disproportionate % of their product held by a single big customer as buying and selling the underlying assets in large quantities could be difficult.

Labtebricolist

As others have said, this feels like more of the same.  I’m curious about your phrase ‘the two I’ve been given’ - who is giving you these options?  If it is an FA/IFA it might be instructive to ask them how these options differ from SJP, in nice simple terms.

If you aren’t confident in managing it all yourself under a SIPP you could look into the Vanguard managed pensions - fees are still relatively low, whilst benefitting from their use of passive funds. 

Groover24

dunstonh said:

Both MPS ranges are generally aimed at restricted FAs operating a Wealth Management business model similar to SJP.   They are available to IFAs as well, and I know one regional IFA in our area that uses the Waverton range, but due to that firm being a larger one, they don't give their IFAs the choice as it's controlled centrally who they can use.  

This is what made me think when I searched for Waverton - I found a lot of Wealth Managers  which seemed very much like SJP. I have learnt something in the last couple of years!

Labtebricolist said:

As others have said, this feels like more of the same.  I’m curious about your phrase ‘the two I’ve been given’ - who is giving you these options?  If it is an FA/IFA it might be instructive to ask them how these options differ from SJP, in nice simple terms.

If you aren’t confident in managing it all yourself under a SIPP you could look into the Vanguard managed pensions - fees are still relatively low, whilst benefitting from their use of passive funds. 

The suggestions have come from two different IFA (definitely IFA rather than FA - not making that mistake again!). I can ask the question as to why Waverton or Quilter.

I am not sure I have the confidence to manage my own SIPP but some investigation might be useful from my side. If nothing else I can ask the appropriate questions.

Linton said:

If you feel bitten by SJP why are you going for apparently similar companies? From  their websites I dont see that either Waverton or Quilter are IFAs.  I suggest you could be better off,  both in terms of costs and guaranteed independence, talking to a small local IFA business who would be focussed on providing appropriate advice for your needs rather than selling their company's products.

Yes, I got the feeling that both seem very much like resticted FA than IFA. Another search for other IFA might be useful

dunstonh

Yes, I got the feeling that both seem very much like resticted FA than IFA. Another search for other IFA might be useful

Most IFA firms are small local firms of 1-5 advisers. Often working out of home offices, converted barns or off high street locations.       The larger the IFA firm, the more likely they are to work with the wealth management model.    This is because the regulator expects all advisers at a firm to sing from the same hymnbook.    So, the regional/national firms will often control the choices at the management level with little or no adviser input.  Small firms will have 1-5 advisers talking together and making their decisions on software, tools, providers, platforms, etc and can be more nimble and react to changes quicker.

If you want to buy a decent sound system, you can go to Currys, which sells a range of brands controlled by the head office. They may have the whole of the market to select from, but the head office will make the choices about what their stores can sell. Or you can go to a small independent store that can pick what fits you better from that whole market without having a head office limiting options.

If you go to an IFA and say you are cost focused, then the IFA has to take that into account. Some IFAs will be cost focused by default.  Others may be returns focused, but if you give an instruction, an IFA has to follow it.  An FA does not necessarily have to follow it as their product range may not allow it.  They may only offer you the lowest cost in their range.   e.g.  The Quilter agent could offer the quilter passive MPS which happens to price exactly the same as Vanguard Lifestrategy.  However, neither of those is the lowest-cost passive MPS available.   

Bostonerimus1

dunstonh said:

After my unfortunate dealings with SJP I am looking at moving the fund elesewhere. Two that I have been given are Waverton and Quilter Wealth Select 7.

Neither do it for me.   That is like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.    
Quilter portfolios are generally for Quilter sales agents.   They are available to IFAs but are less likely to be used as IFAs have better options. You don't say which wealth select range it is (there are several depending on the theme, and most of the themes are expensive. One is not too bad, but it's still not the best in class).

You also don't say which Waverton, but assuming the one with the same risk profile as the Quilter, it's also expensive.

Both MPS ranges are generally aimed at restricted FAs operating a Wealth Management business model similar to SJP.   They are available to IFAs as well, and I know one regional IFA in our area that uses the Waverton range, but due to that firm being a larger one, they don't give their IFAs the choice as it's controlled centrally who they can use.  

There is worse.    But there is better.     And remember, investing is as much about opinion as facts (and timing and where you are in a cycle).

I agree with dunstonh on this, it sounds as if you aren't really making much of a change.

If you don't want to DIY then find an IFA who will keep things simple and not charge an "arm and a leg".  I'd recommend you invest a few low cost index funds or maybe multi-asset funds, never go with anyone who promises you market beating returns or who sings the praises of expensive actively managed funds. FYI I use a simple portfolio of two index funds and a single multi-asset fund that needs minimal management and has provided good returns, you don't necessarily need to complicate things.

Albermarle

Labtebricolist said:

As others have said, this feels like more of the same.  I’m curious about your phrase ‘the two I’ve been given’ - who is giving you these options?  If it is an FA/IFA it might be instructive to ask them how these options differ from SJP, in nice simple terms.

If you aren’t confident in managing it all yourself under a SIPP you could look into the Vanguard managed pensions - fees are still relatively low, whilst benefitting from their use of passive funds. 

Not a bad suggestion. As well as the Target Retirement funds they also offer an additional advice service for a relatively modest fee.( although I suspect they normally just advise you to invest in a Target Retirement fund !)
However it should be clear that this is a very basic investment advice model, and you should not expect the level of service of a conventional advisor, who can advise on different tax issues, family finance, how maybe your DB pension or other savings are part of the overall asset allocation picture, cash flow modelling etc.
Of course you might not need all that or be willing to pay for it.

Groover24

The Waverton fund sugested is the Waverton Growth - Dec 11 - not sure what this and how it compares to others. I have looked on Trustnet for information but not sure if I have found the right fund.

The IFA suggesting this would appear to be part of a larger company with national offices. 

The IFA offering the Quilter fund is a small local company  - the fund is the WealthSelect Active Managed Portfolio 7

dunstonh

The Waverton fund sugested is the Waverton Growth - Dec 11 - not sure what this and how it compares to others. I have looked on Trustnet for information but not sure if I have found the right fund.

You wont find it on Trustnet as its an MPS, not a fund.  It has 77% equities.  It reinvests into 4 Waverton funds. Waverton Absolute Return P GBP, Waverton Real Assets P GBP Dist, Waverton Sterling Bond P GBP, Waverton Strategic Equity P GBP.    76.3% in the latter and that fund has broadly been mid table in IA Global  (227th out of 410 over 5 years - Quartile 3)

In my opinion, its expensive and nothing special on the investment front. I picked four lower-cost, popular MPS with 60,70 and 80% equities without knowing what the outcome would be, and the Waverton MPS underperformed all of them.   So, my question back to that IFA is, why are you recommending an option that is more than twice the cost and has lower performance of alternatives?

My gut thought is that the head office dictates who they can invest in and not the local agent. 

The IFA offering the Quilter fund is a small local company  - the fund is the WealthSelect Active Managed Portfolio 7

It's an unusual choice for an IFA.     Typically, it's Quilter FAs that offer that range.  It is made available to IFAs but in my eyes it offers nothing that can be improved upon elsewhere.

Its more expensive than Waverton and nearly 4x the cost of the lower cost options. It has performed better than the Waverton but not as well as the low-cost alternatives with a similar asset mix.

So, again, that question would go back to that IFA (assuming it is an IFA and not a Quilter FA) and ask them why are they using that compared to lower cost alternatives with better performance.