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Wage and duties dispute

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  • Hoenir
    Hoenir Posts: 7,742 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Malarky21 said:
    No one i have spoken to (and i have spoken to lots of people) think raising a grievance over this situation is 'going about things totally wrong, causing friction and trouble, somewhat silly etc but i'll take on board all your comments.


    Bottom line is that everybody in an organisation is both expendable and replacable. Some issues on a broad level aren't easily and quickly resolved.  The management may well have no desire to set a precedent nor make an exception. As would simply consume a huge amount of their time when there's more pressing business matters to be dealt with. 
  • EnPointe
    EnPointe Posts: 829 Forumite
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    the bottom line is the OP has  picked a hill to die on and if they  hadn't already got some warmish leads of roles elsewhere they  are going to find themselves out of a job one way or another 
  • TELLIT01
    TELLIT01 Posts: 18,011 Forumite
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    A point I failed to make earlier is that when companies merge or are taken over, wages often are unequal for the same job.  Those at the top end, and possibly above the upper limit of their grade, can go without payrises for a number of years until their salary again falls within the band.
  • Malarky21
    Malarky21 Posts: 101 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 10 Posts
    EnPointe said:
    the bottom line is the OP has  picked a hill to die on and if they  hadn't already got some warmish leads of roles elsewhere they  are going to find themselves out of a job one way or another 
    What a load of rubbish, sorry but your contribution and 'advice' is both over dramatic and without any real depth.
  • Malarky21
    Malarky21 Posts: 101 Forumite
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    My original post was just looking for some advice to the questions i posed rather than lectures on what a terrible thing i've done etc, just wanted some responses to the questions. Thanks
  • gm0
    gm0 Posts: 1,173 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 11 March at 10:52PM
    OP everything I said hinges on when you said " ideally i'd want to stay"

    Didn't mean to offend.

    The more general point is being entitled to do something doesn't necessarily make doing it a good idea.  Entirely depends on what you want and how patient you are prepared to be to chase it.  And the risk reward of the specific action.  In gaming the meta.  Or in old money tactics.

    You triggered a process (which indeed does have rules).  You also push other actors into a need to make decisions now - where they did not have to do that just *now* prior.  Other replies have touched on this.  And how some choices are in practice unavailable during a financial crunch or a consultation - leaving a problem to be solved with fewer good options left.  HR may and often do constrain management options in larger outfits to suit their broader goals.  They have found an acceptable (to them) solution - just not the one you wanted.

    Totally agree the recommendations you received ARE legally correct re entitlement.  And yet also operating a bit independently from human nature, custom and practice and diversity of workplace cultures in the wild. 
    Both of these things can be true at the same time.

    Sometimes you have no choice from prior interactions and a grievance is all you can do. Sure. 

    Yet often sleeping dogs can be let lie - as a formal HR process - and a known problem subject returned to later as conditions change and allow.  Job opens up.  Annual reviews. Change of boss.  Business picks up.  Power balance changes.

    My ah it's a misunderstanding/loyal long serving ploy upthread - is simply what I would do if I found myself in your situation and did not want to take the money and bother with the job hunt.  And I had a management target for the play.  To row it back. Seek support and counsel as described. Going back.  Dropping the grievance.  Then I'd give it 12-18 months to see how things unfolded. The opportunity cost is that the settlement offer might not be on the table later when I found a job lead and had got tired of further lack of progress.

    Or take the money, embrace the change.  Find the (better) job. Accept being a newbie in a different outfit with a different commute.

    Of course the whole idea might be utter nonsense at this point based on the management in your company.  I don't know. 

    Where I worked over the years it would sometimes have been a good and effective option.  And other times the density of utterly selfish unpleasant transactional bosses close to me was just too high.  Sometimes there wasn't an obvious person with a care for the long term health of the organisation / its knowledge and people and a cadre building ethos. And relevant status connections and power in the right part of the business.  People who would recognise those things when they saw them and walk the talk on the supposed values of the place.

    My takeaway from my own doings both as a wannabe and as a leader with too many hungry people for too few high performance slots - is this. 

    If you make a fuss about pay and rations or roles and promotions expected - and then don't leave when you receive a career knockback. They now *know* they can do that again.  And quite likely will.   Depending on the context for the knockback - you can go around a few times rolling the lucky dice on internal job applications or promotions based on performing above and beyond where you are - and building and demoing next level skills as opportunities permit.  
    Once a pattern of knockback and continuity is established.  Bluff called.  Did not leave. 

    When they do it again later the only reason needed is "because we can".   A relevant colloquialism for this affront to natural justice - is that "it doesn't say just desserts on the tin lad".

    Once you have demonstrated that you stay anyway.  The risk of you flouncing is known to be low.  You did not jump last time.  We can make another convenient decision overall for us and disappoint you again with different excuses.  At low risk. 

    In your example - promoting your higher paid colleague flat on salary into a next level role slot (in any team) and leaving you nice and cheap in your current position and then opening up their vacated job as another lower cost position alongside you (and getting you to do early cv reviews or screening interviews and then leaving you the task to train the noob gratis after they pick one) would be an example of such a "convenient" decision - when financial rain clouds clear. 

    On another day with different management where you have recognition of value and support. And are known to want and be a good candidate for a move - you do get a better paid job. 

    You don't have to agree with any of these subjective opinions. 

    It's your circus and your ambitions and willingness to compromise to achieve them

    Peace
  • Malarky21
    Malarky21 Posts: 101 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 10 Posts
    Thank you for a more constructive message gm0 :)
  • EnPointe
    EnPointe Posts: 829 Forumite
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    edited 12 March at 11:19AM
    Malarky21 said:
    EnPointe said:
    the bottom line is the OP has  picked a hill to die on and if they  hadn't already got some warmish leads of roles elsewhere they  are going to find themselves out of a job one way or another 
    What a load of rubbish, sorry but your contribution and 'advice' is both over dramatic and without any real depth.
    from your own  posts you've  told your managment that you are utterly  disengned  from the job  because of percieved slight  and that  you want them to  increase your  wage for what to them will be no apparent reason   or  for them to pay you off to go away...   

    it;s apparent you have little to no understanding of  the impact of TUPE and redeployment  and how this can impact  on wages and salaries  during  the transitional period  , which may last for a number of years - and in some organisations  seperate  structures  and wage rates are maintained  ( example East Midlands Railways with 'main line' and 'regional' contracts)  or  the  business  structure is such that one group of staff retains TACoS not offered to others ( e.g. those with 'postman' status  working for Parcelforce )...

    I agree with @gm0 's assessment of things as well.  

    a lot of managers are going to see you  complaint / grievance as ill-founded   and if you  don;t leave you are going to be sidelined time and time again  becasue you didn't leave. 
  • EnPointe
    EnPointe Posts: 829 Forumite
    500 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Malarky21 said:
    My original post was just looking for some advice to the questions i posed rather than lectures on what a terrible thing i've done etc, just wanted some responses to the questions. Thanks
    You asked for advice and opinions 

     You got advice and opinion from people who have made that mistake before and/or are accredited trades Union representatives  , HR people  or the like  

     you  didn't like the advice you  were given because it  didn't validate  your perception of being hard  done to  and becasue it opened youreyes to  the reality  of potential outcomes. 

     the first thing  a TU rep will ask when  someone comes  for  advice aobut a grievance is what the individual wants as the outcoem of the grievance  -  on individual cases ( rather than wider group grievances  about  equal treatment  or  job evaluation scores )  and increase in wage unless you have a slam dunk case of   demonstrating that your role clearly meets the  requirements of a published  job evaluation scheme  is that   the employer with  dispute, deny and divert ...  grievances about task allocation are also fraught  and need to be carefully managed  , on an individual basis  the grievances most likely to succeed are  those where  there is clear bullying and harassment  of an indvidual either by supervisors / managers or  by  peers / subordinatres and management allowing it to happen 
  • DullGreyGuy
    DullGreyGuy Posts: 18,613 Forumite
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    Ultimately you have a manager, even if it's the CEO. They may not be present or particularly engaged but ultimately you report into someone and haven't become the de facto CEO.

    Even without a merger there can be disparity in salaries depending on history, career path etc. I was a "M2", the grade immediately below a senior manager. A new junior was hired as a "M1" and I was asked to manage him as his senior. I had come up through the business from being in the call centre and as a consequence I was right at the bottom of the pay scale. The Junior had about the same amount of years of experience as me but on smaller bits of work and had a salary near the top of the M1 scale. 

    After a couple of months he came to me to complain that his salary was too low; I was very tempted to let him know that as his boss I was earning £7,500 less than him. 

    I ultimately stayed another year, then applied for a sideways move to another company but doubled my pay. They even said they were concerned they were underpaying me and worried I'd leave for better money... I couldn't stifle the laugh. 

    I won't comment on the sense of raising a grievance as a way to renegotiate salaries as that ship has sailed. Ultimately you have said what their offer is and even if you had no one will know what difference it will make in your life so its really for you to decide if it makes you happy and hopefully you've not had your card marked. 

    Will always say you get promotions by staying with a company and you get good money by switching company.  Which is your priority is likely to change over time. 
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