Can Pension Company refuse to pay to nominee

LHW99

SmokeysTravels said:

Marcon said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

Pretty risky. Even with an up to date EOW, an appropriate level of due diligence is required - which means doing at least some checking. Just rubber stamping something 'because they're on the EOW' is inviting a challenge...

SmokeysTravels said:

Pat38493 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

So you would have paid out, and potentially found out later on that you paid out to the person’s ex and they forgot to change the form but had re-married later on?  The usual example given out for this is when someone got divorced, then they re-married later on but forgot to change the expression of wish to the new spouse.  I’m sure I’ve heard of examples where the trustees paid out to the new spouse.

In the scenario I outlined above then yes absolutely we would have paid out. In other more complicated cases we would need more information. So, for example, a family member informs us of the member’s death and lets us know the member had remarried and wouldn’t want the money going to the ex spouse but we had the ex spouse as the expression of wish. In this example we would probably need probate. 

Probate might not get you much further. If there's a will you can (and should) ask for a copy. If there isn't, could be a long wait - and either way, you might find yourself exceeding the two year mark before payment can be allocated, sparking a tax charge.

Sounds like some basic training would be no bad thing.

There was always a balance to be struck between due diligence and providing excellent customer service. Here a risk based method was used. The size of some of these DC pots were very small (nothing like the numbers from some forum members). In the scenario I outlined above then assuming it was under a set level we would pay out. I don’t recall ever having a dispute over such a payment. 

Wills can only get you so far. Often there will be no mention of the pension. If someone was intent on committing fraud how would you know it was the most recent one?

It’s been several years since I worked for a pension provider, and the last one sold their book so it wouldn’t apply to them anymore anyway. However, from my own experience and from speaking to ex colleagues in the industry in terms of customer service the race to the bottom is really on. Prior to Covid many companies would try to turn work around in under five days. When Covid hit this all went out of the window. Some companies didn’t even answer phones. Whilst things got slightly better afterwards, there seems to be an acceptance that much higher turnaround times are acceptable and if you can put extra barriers in place then so be it. Going the extra mile and trying to improve the customer experience seems to be a thing of the past. It would seem the DC providers have finally figured out they can be as useless as DB ones and get away with it. If you have had to deal with any of those companies you will probably know what I mean. 

Complying with the proposed inheritance tax on unused pensions could become a real issue then, if moneys have to be paid to HMRC within 6 months

artyboy

LHW99 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

Marcon said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

Pretty risky. Even with an up to date EOW, an appropriate level of due diligence is required - which means doing at least some checking. Just rubber stamping something 'because they're on the EOW' is inviting a challenge...

SmokeysTravels said:

Pat38493 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

So you would have paid out, and potentially found out later on that you paid out to the person’s ex and they forgot to change the form but had re-married later on?  The usual example given out for this is when someone got divorced, then they re-married later on but forgot to change the expression of wish to the new spouse.  I’m sure I’ve heard of examples where the trustees paid out to the new spouse.

In the scenario I outlined above then yes absolutely we would have paid out. In other more complicated cases we would need more information. So, for example, a family member informs us of the member’s death and lets us know the member had remarried and wouldn’t want the money going to the ex spouse but we had the ex spouse as the expression of wish. In this example we would probably need probate. 

Probate might not get you much further. If there's a will you can (and should) ask for a copy. If there isn't, could be a long wait - and either way, you might find yourself exceeding the two year mark before payment can be allocated, sparking a tax charge.

Sounds like some basic training would be no bad thing.

There was always a balance to be struck between due diligence and providing excellent customer service. Here a risk based method was used. The size of some of these DC pots were very small (nothing like the numbers from some forum members). In the scenario I outlined above then assuming it was under a set level we would pay out. I don’t recall ever having a dispute over such a payment. 

Wills can only get you so far. Often there will be no mention of the pension. If someone was intent on committing fraud how would you know it was the most recent one?

It’s been several years since I worked for a pension provider, and the last one sold their book so it wouldn’t apply to them anymore anyway. However, from my own experience and from speaking to ex colleagues in the industry in terms of customer service the race to the bottom is really on. Prior to Covid many companies would try to turn work around in under five days. When Covid hit this all went out of the window. Some companies didn’t even answer phones. Whilst things got slightly better afterwards, there seems to be an acceptance that much higher turnaround times are acceptable and if you can put extra barriers in place then so be it. Going the extra mile and trying to improve the customer experience seems to be a thing of the past. It would seem the DC providers have finally figured out they can be as useless as DB ones and get away with it. If you have had to deal with any of those companies you will probably know what I mean. 

Complying with the proposed inheritance tax on unused pensions could become a real issue then, if moneys have to be paid to HMRC within 6 months

The deathly silence on any meaningful proposals since the budget is perhaps a measure of how complicated this is going to be - trying to get pension administrators and trustees to work with estate executors...? If the executor is going to be on the hook for paying IHT including that of any pension residue then good luck finding anyone that's prepared to take that job on in future!

Albermarle

artyboy said:

LHW99 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

Marcon said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

Pretty risky. Even with an up to date EOW, an appropriate level of due diligence is required - which means doing at least some checking. Just rubber stamping something 'because they're on the EOW' is inviting a challenge...

SmokeysTravels said:

Pat38493 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

So you would have paid out, and potentially found out later on that you paid out to the person’s ex and they forgot to change the form but had re-married later on?  The usual example given out for this is when someone got divorced, then they re-married later on but forgot to change the expression of wish to the new spouse.  I’m sure I’ve heard of examples where the trustees paid out to the new spouse.

In the scenario I outlined above then yes absolutely we would have paid out. In other more complicated cases we would need more information. So, for example, a family member informs us of the member’s death and lets us know the member had remarried and wouldn’t want the money going to the ex spouse but we had the ex spouse as the expression of wish. In this example we would probably need probate. 

Probate might not get you much further. If there's a will you can (and should) ask for a copy. If there isn't, could be a long wait - and either way, you might find yourself exceeding the two year mark before payment can be allocated, sparking a tax charge.

Sounds like some basic training would be no bad thing.

There was always a balance to be struck between due diligence and providing excellent customer service. Here a risk based method was used. The size of some of these DC pots were very small (nothing like the numbers from some forum members). In the scenario I outlined above then assuming it was under a set level we would pay out. I don’t recall ever having a dispute over such a payment. 

Wills can only get you so far. Often there will be no mention of the pension. If someone was intent on committing fraud how would you know it was the most recent one?

It’s been several years since I worked for a pension provider, and the last one sold their book so it wouldn’t apply to them anymore anyway. However, from my own experience and from speaking to ex colleagues in the industry in terms of customer service the race to the bottom is really on. Prior to Covid many companies would try to turn work around in under five days. When Covid hit this all went out of the window. Some companies didn’t even answer phones. Whilst things got slightly better afterwards, there seems to be an acceptance that much higher turnaround times are acceptable and if you can put extra barriers in place then so be it. Going the extra mile and trying to improve the customer experience seems to be a thing of the past. It would seem the DC providers have finally figured out they can be as useless as DB ones and get away with it. If you have had to deal with any of those companies you will probably know what I mean. 

Complying with the proposed inheritance tax on unused pensions could become a real issue then, if moneys have to be paid to HMRC within 6 months

The deathly silence on any meaningful proposals since the budget is perhaps a measure of how complicated this is going to be - trying to get pension administrators and trustees to work with estate executors...? If the executor is going to be on the hook for paying IHT including that of any pension residue then good luck finding anyone that's prepared to take that job on in future!

As an example ( and probably quite a common one)  a family friend has recently become an executor after her last parent died.
Basically she has not a clue what to do. Just scribbling down figures on the back of an envelope, using her own bank account etc . Luckily AFAIK there are no pensions or IHT issues, but would be chaos if there was.

Pat38493

artyboy said:

LHW99 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

Marcon said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

Pretty risky. Even with an up to date EOW, an appropriate level of due diligence is required - which means doing at least some checking. Just rubber stamping something 'because they're on the EOW' is inviting a challenge...

SmokeysTravels said:

Pat38493 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

So you would have paid out, and potentially found out later on that you paid out to the person’s ex and they forgot to change the form but had re-married later on?  The usual example given out for this is when someone got divorced, then they re-married later on but forgot to change the expression of wish to the new spouse.  I’m sure I’ve heard of examples where the trustees paid out to the new spouse.

In the scenario I outlined above then yes absolutely we would have paid out. In other more complicated cases we would need more information. So, for example, a family member informs us of the member’s death and lets us know the member had remarried and wouldn’t want the money going to the ex spouse but we had the ex spouse as the expression of wish. In this example we would probably need probate. 

Probate might not get you much further. If there's a will you can (and should) ask for a copy. If there isn't, could be a long wait - and either way, you might find yourself exceeding the two year mark before payment can be allocated, sparking a tax charge.

Sounds like some basic training would be no bad thing.

There was always a balance to be struck between due diligence and providing excellent customer service. Here a risk based method was used. The size of some of these DC pots were very small (nothing like the numbers from some forum members). In the scenario I outlined above then assuming it was under a set level we would pay out. I don’t recall ever having a dispute over such a payment. 

Wills can only get you so far. Often there will be no mention of the pension. If someone was intent on committing fraud how would you know it was the most recent one?

It’s been several years since I worked for a pension provider, and the last one sold their book so it wouldn’t apply to them anymore anyway. However, from my own experience and from speaking to ex colleagues in the industry in terms of customer service the race to the bottom is really on. Prior to Covid many companies would try to turn work around in under five days. When Covid hit this all went out of the window. Some companies didn’t even answer phones. Whilst things got slightly better afterwards, there seems to be an acceptance that much higher turnaround times are acceptable and if you can put extra barriers in place then so be it. Going the extra mile and trying to improve the customer experience seems to be a thing of the past. It would seem the DC providers have finally figured out they can be as useless as DB ones and get away with it. If you have had to deal with any of those companies you will probably know what I mean. 

Complying with the proposed inheritance tax on unused pensions could become a real issue then, if moneys have to be paid to HMRC within 6 months

The deathly silence on any meaningful proposals since the budget is perhaps a measure of how complicated this is going to be - trying to get pension administrators and trustees to work with estate executors...? If the executor is going to be on the hook for paying IHT including that of any pension residue then good luck finding anyone that's prepared to take that job on in future!

As far as I know, you don't take on that responsibility automatically just because someone wrote you as the executor in their will.  You still have to accept it after they die to take on the legal responsibility?

Albermarle

Pat38493 said:

artyboy said:

LHW99 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

Marcon said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

Pretty risky. Even with an up to date EOW, an appropriate level of due diligence is required - which means doing at least some checking. Just rubber stamping something 'because they're on the EOW' is inviting a challenge...

SmokeysTravels said:

Pat38493 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

So you would have paid out, and potentially found out later on that you paid out to the person’s ex and they forgot to change the form but had re-married later on?  The usual example given out for this is when someone got divorced, then they re-married later on but forgot to change the expression of wish to the new spouse.  I’m sure I’ve heard of examples where the trustees paid out to the new spouse.

In the scenario I outlined above then yes absolutely we would have paid out. In other more complicated cases we would need more information. So, for example, a family member informs us of the member’s death and lets us know the member had remarried and wouldn’t want the money going to the ex spouse but we had the ex spouse as the expression of wish. In this example we would probably need probate. 

Probate might not get you much further. If there's a will you can (and should) ask for a copy. If there isn't, could be a long wait - and either way, you might find yourself exceeding the two year mark before payment can be allocated, sparking a tax charge.

Sounds like some basic training would be no bad thing.

There was always a balance to be struck between due diligence and providing excellent customer service. Here a risk based method was used. The size of some of these DC pots were very small (nothing like the numbers from some forum members). In the scenario I outlined above then assuming it was under a set level we would pay out. I don’t recall ever having a dispute over such a payment. 

Wills can only get you so far. Often there will be no mention of the pension. If someone was intent on committing fraud how would you know it was the most recent one?

It’s been several years since I worked for a pension provider, and the last one sold their book so it wouldn’t apply to them anymore anyway. However, from my own experience and from speaking to ex colleagues in the industry in terms of customer service the race to the bottom is really on. Prior to Covid many companies would try to turn work around in under five days. When Covid hit this all went out of the window. Some companies didn’t even answer phones. Whilst things got slightly better afterwards, there seems to be an acceptance that much higher turnaround times are acceptable and if you can put extra barriers in place then so be it. Going the extra mile and trying to improve the customer experience seems to be a thing of the past. It would seem the DC providers have finally figured out they can be as useless as DB ones and get away with it. If you have had to deal with any of those companies you will probably know what I mean. 

Complying with the proposed inheritance tax on unused pensions could become a real issue then, if moneys have to be paid to HMRC within 6 months

The deathly silence on any meaningful proposals since the budget is perhaps a measure of how complicated this is going to be - trying to get pension administrators and trustees to work with estate executors...? If the executor is going to be on the hook for paying IHT including that of any pension residue then good luck finding anyone that's prepared to take that job on in future!

As far as I know, you don't take on that responsibility automatically just because someone wrote you as the executor in their will.  You still have to accept it after they die to take on the legal responsibility?

That is true, but many executors will be close family members of the deceased, so would probably never even dream of walking away from the responsibility ( or know that you can ) . 

Pat38493

Albermarle said:

Pat38493 said:

artyboy said:

LHW99 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

Marcon said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

Pretty risky. Even with an up to date EOW, an appropriate level of due diligence is required - which means doing at least some checking. Just rubber stamping something 'because they're on the EOW' is inviting a challenge...

SmokeysTravels said:

Pat38493 said:

SmokeysTravels said:

From my experience in the industry if someone died and the person who contacted us was the expression of wish, then all we needed was a claim form and a death certificate and we would pay out. This could be done in a matter of days. 

However, if there was no expression of wish we would usually wait for probate. I spoke to a woman (fairly recently whilst I was working with Pension Wise ) whose husband had died and he had forgotten to name her as the expression of wish and that pension company was waiting for probate. She had been waiting for over a year and still hadn’t got the money as his estate was complex and it was taking an age to get probate. It’s so important that people complete and keep up to date their expression of wish on DC pensions.

So you would have paid out, and potentially found out later on that you paid out to the person’s ex and they forgot to change the form but had re-married later on?  The usual example given out for this is when someone got divorced, then they re-married later on but forgot to change the expression of wish to the new spouse.  I’m sure I’ve heard of examples where the trustees paid out to the new spouse.

In the scenario I outlined above then yes absolutely we would have paid out. In other more complicated cases we would need more information. So, for example, a family member informs us of the member’s death and lets us know the member had remarried and wouldn’t want the money going to the ex spouse but we had the ex spouse as the expression of wish. In this example we would probably need probate. 

Probate might not get you much further. If there's a will you can (and should) ask for a copy. If there isn't, could be a long wait - and either way, you might find yourself exceeding the two year mark before payment can be allocated, sparking a tax charge.

Sounds like some basic training would be no bad thing.

There was always a balance to be struck between due diligence and providing excellent customer service. Here a risk based method was used. The size of some of these DC pots were very small (nothing like the numbers from some forum members). In the scenario I outlined above then assuming it was under a set level we would pay out. I don’t recall ever having a dispute over such a payment. 

Wills can only get you so far. Often there will be no mention of the pension. If someone was intent on committing fraud how would you know it was the most recent one?

It’s been several years since I worked for a pension provider, and the last one sold their book so it wouldn’t apply to them anymore anyway. However, from my own experience and from speaking to ex colleagues in the industry in terms of customer service the race to the bottom is really on. Prior to Covid many companies would try to turn work around in under five days. When Covid hit this all went out of the window. Some companies didn’t even answer phones. Whilst things got slightly better afterwards, there seems to be an acceptance that much higher turnaround times are acceptable and if you can put extra barriers in place then so be it. Going the extra mile and trying to improve the customer experience seems to be a thing of the past. It would seem the DC providers have finally figured out they can be as useless as DB ones and get away with it. If you have had to deal with any of those companies you will probably know what I mean. 

Complying with the proposed inheritance tax on unused pensions could become a real issue then, if moneys have to be paid to HMRC within 6 months

The deathly silence on any meaningful proposals since the budget is perhaps a measure of how complicated this is going to be - trying to get pension administrators and trustees to work with estate executors...? If the executor is going to be on the hook for paying IHT including that of any pension residue then good luck finding anyone that's prepared to take that job on in future!

As far as I know, you don't take on that responsibility automatically just because someone wrote you as the executor in their will.  You still have to accept it after they die to take on the legal responsibility?

That is true, but many executors will be close family members of the deceased, so would probably never even dream of walking away from the responsibility ( or know that you can ) . 

Yes but if they find out they are personally liable for issues that they have little or no control over, they might start refusing.