Should I or shouldn't I, heating problem

twopenny

So I've tried 2 long threads on here for help but so far not solved. Though I thank all and have tried most of it.

Had multiple contacts with relevant trades some of whom were giving me conflicting information.

Also found that neighbours on mini estate have had to redo heating pipes because they were badly installed - mine were fine for 6yrs.

Heating making noises, boiler, pump etc all working fine confirmed.

Possible kettling solved by guy 'we let air out by the valves' and 'you have a self ventelating system' and you must keep one radiator on full. Not only a sauna ensued in my tiny place but made no difference.

Now I have an almost continuous, fast tapping noise from the pipes in the ceiling. Faster than the Flight of the Bumble Bee! Very loud on cold days. This is spreading now further into the house.

Also some radiators are overheating after a couple of hours.

Plumber examination - no clips on the pipes they are banging on beams, piping all wrong (which you can see near the loft hatch)

Says he will have to drain the system, cut some of the pipes to get them into the clips to raise above beams. and will clip and insulate the pipes.

Does this sound like a good idea?

I can't live with the noise though it's taken 6mts to find an answer because I've been let down so often.

I'm concerned that although it's sensible and needs doing that it might not solve the noise and I'm just going to be considerably out of pocket.

I can't get up there due to dodgy leg or would have done a heath robinson job.

Should I ask a friend to climb up there and put some felt pads under the pipes to see if that works? If it does then I can confidently get the pipes done and money well spent.

I'm asking because this is a young guy who seems to know his stuff and I need to book him quick before he gets involved in bigger jobs.

Just had to buy another car that had things wrong, been unwell cconsiderably and haven't been able to just relax at home because of the noise and being constantly let down by people who say they will come but don't or just don't reply to calls.

so opinions please. What would you do?

ThisIsWeird

I think you first need to know where the noise is coming from - what is actually causing it.
Did this plumber hear the noise? Did he say he recognised what it was? Was it familiar to him? Did he definitively say, "That is X, and I can sort it with Y...",?
Or did he suck air in through his teeth and say, "Hmmm - strange..."?
If this plumber is taking on the task of 'sorting the noise', then that's what he needs to sort. And his proposed solution could well be correct.
But, if it's just noise from heating and cooling pipes being in contact with surfaces, that is surely dead simple to sort?
Q - is the noise reliably predictable; if you arrange for the young fellow to turn up, can you pretty much guarantee you can put on a sound display for him?
A note about pipes and clips; yes, loose - or a lack of - clips can cause banging and 'hamner'. And, yes, too-tight clips can cause ticks and creaks. But, they don't have to. 
I ran a couple of long 15mm plastic pipes from one end of the house to the far bathrooms, lagged them in foam sleeving, and just left them lying across the joists along three runs of eaves. Not a peep. There will only be a noise if the pipes are making direct contact.
So, depending on the actual cause of the noise - if it's down to the physical contact of these pipes to the fabric of the ceiling - it should be effective to simply lag these pipes, using thick slip-on foam sleeving (worth going thick), and that 'should' stop all creaking, ticking and banging.
Young lad can do this, and total cost would be minimal.
Of course, it might not work - if that ain't the cause.
And, there may be other issues too. What does 'piping all wrong' actually mean, for instance? And could air be getting trapped in these runs of pipes? (You won't be able to answer that). 
Yours is a vented system, isn't it? It has a small F&E tank? These are far more susceptible to having airlocks forming, and that 'might' explain why your system behaves differently after it's been on for a good while - some rads starting to overheat. When this happens, do other rads cool down in response? And what does 'overheating' actually mean? There shouldn't be any 'overheating', as your boiler should be limited in the water temp it delivers = no possible 'overheat'. 
Two basic ways to get rid of airlocks; the expensive proper way is to re-pipe, ensuring the correct falls throughout, so that air has no place to settle - it should make its way up towards the 'venting' pipe and be expelled. And the other is a 'cheat'; identify the dodgy long flat runs, raise them gently in the middles of these runs using suitable blocks - just an inch or two should do - add a tee piece there, a short piece of vertical pipe, and an auto air vent at the top. 

twopenny

Thank you for explaining that. Makes it relatable.

So a very kind friend has been up there to put some felt pads under where the pipes touch the joists to see what happens. I'm waiting tonight.

So far slower tapping which is an improvement but could change.

Overheating means getting very hot to scalding when they should be low. And yes, the other rads go cool when this happens.

Seems the two pipes running together on the joist vary between touching and quite a bit away from the joist. Goodness knows how that happens but it is what it is.

He didn't mention 'falls' but did about repiping I think.

I'll get onto him about that.

Draining and straightening the pipe is what I heard and that may entail me having a night in an hotel too so a bit of a kerfuffle and more expense.

The pipes are loose, clipped tight (water I think), not clipped and criss cross.

Nothing from the boiler is touching anything and it is quiet there.

ThisIsWeird

Some rads becoming hot whilst others cool would, I think, fit in with an airlock forming - assuming it ain't anything obvious like TRVs shutting down, of course. What controls/valves do you have on the rads? However, nothing should get hotter than what the boiler is supplying, so there should just be no 'scalding' or 'overheating'.
Your friend noticed the 'two' pipes running unevenly? Which pipes - the CH ones?
And others run in weird ways too? But, if these are domestic water pipes - Ie H&C - and your taps flow fine, then really no need to interfere with these.
I think, without layout diagrams, and photos of the pipes, I'm very limited in what else I can say.
Keep us posted.

twopenny

Yes TIW. You and me both. I printed a house plan with a view to drawing a layout of the pipes to get some ideas.

It's a tangle, some under the insulation so not a hope for someone with a duff leg. And the tanks are in the way of viewing. It's only tiny here. It's the location and neighbours that keeps me.

Well, the felt pads have made a difference tonight. The occasional slow, deep tick not for long and in the area not done.

Otherwise 'Oh Bliss!'

And it's been cold for Somerset which is the trigger so another bonus.

Rads operating at what they should be.

Of course no idea if it's going to lead to something else but I guess having it done properly should be the way to go.

However that's just a few hours, I'll hold fire until it's been a couple of days before getting the champers out

Perhaps if ok I could hold off on getting it done properly until the bank balance is more healthy.

Just hope the pipe supported on a couple of bits of lagging supporting one end wasn't what I paid £100 for from my least favourite heating guy.

ThisIsWeird

twopenny said:

Yes TIW. You and me both. I printed a house plan with a view to drawing a layout of the pipes to get some ideas.

It's a tangle, some under the insulation so not a hope for someone with a duff leg. And the tanks are in the way of viewing. It's only tiny here. It's the location and neighbours that keeps me.

Well, the felt pads have made a difference tonight. The occasional slow, deep tick not for long and in the area not done.

Otherwise 'Oh Bliss!'

And it's been cold for Somerset which is the trigger so another bonus.

Rads operating at what they should be.

Of course no idea if it's going to lead to something else but I guess having it done properly should be the way to go.

However that's just a few hours, I'll hold fire until it's been a couple of days before getting the champers out

Perhaps if ok I could hold off on getting it done properly until the bank balance is more healthy.

Just hope the pipe supported on a couple of bits of lagging supporting one end wasn't what I paid £100 for from my least favourite heating guy.

Tee-hee - you also paid him for his professional diagnosis :-)
Sounds promising - fingers crossed. There would appear to be two issues - one is simply the contact noise, and this should be a doddle to sort - the lagging I mentioned. The other is the potential airlocks, and that will require an overall look at these presumably-responsible pipe runs. 
All the other pipes - as long as they flow ok, ignore them :-)

FreeBear

twopenny said: Well, the felt pads have made a difference tonight. The occasional slow, deep tick not for long and in the area not done.

I get a slow quiet ticking noise under the floor on the landing as the CH system heats up and cools down. The noise is not invasive and barely noticeable. It just happens to be in the middle of a ~7.5m run of copper pipes where they cross over a joist. So expansion & contraction of the pipes. Nothing to worry about.

ThisIsWeird

If you can sketch the layout of the CH pipes, that could help. Include where the boiler and F&E tank are on this.
These two pipes in your loft - do they come straight from your boiler? Are they the main flow and return pipes? 

twopenny

FreeBear, this was more. Try tapping a hard surface with your nail or knuckle as fast as you can and imagine that every 30secs

I may try a sketch later but honestly at the mo I'm sick as a parrot and tired. But enjoying sitting quietly in a warm home  

Yes the pipes come from the boiler in the garage and across the back of the attic. Probably yes, main f&r pipes.

The mains water and expansion tanks are in the centre.

So tempting though it is to leave it, getting it done properly is the answer. I'll check with him that he intends to be sure that if the pipes knock on the suspension brackets he'll get up there with the felt!

Also that he intends to arrange them as you said "ensuring the correct falls throughout, so that air has no place to settle - it should make its way up towards the 'venting' pipe and be expelled."

He's a cheerful young guy and 'sounds' confident.

FreeBear

twopenny said:

FreeBear, this was more. Try tapping a hard surface with your nail or knuckle as fast as you can and imagine that every 30secs

Hrmm.... Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but what happens if the pump speed is turned down ?

Some boilers, you have to dive in to the service menu, others, it is a simple knob on the back of the pump.

twopenny

Interesting.........but I did have 2 heating guys who checked right through. Only 1 charged for an hour and the other just nipped in as was nearby and didn't.

Tried altering the pump and the boiler and both said working fine. Must be the pipes.

The pump is trundling along very quietly - the rads operating to the right temp.

That's why I wanted to check for sure that's what it was before paying.

And fair enough, it's lovely here at the mo.