Have we ever been in a worse car buying era I don't know where to turn next.

WellKnownSid

Bonniepurple said:

And yes, I know technology has moved on and batteries are better, but I think most local folk had a giggle a few years ago when the local police force discovered that their then brand new, state of the art EV objected to headlights, blue lights, sirens AND windscreen wipers being used at the sand time and ran out of battery 😀

Makes a lot of sense. It’s probably easy to add another alternator (or upgraded one) onto an ICE police car to get the extra amps required into the 12v system. That same modification on an EV would require dc-dc converter changes that would probably require a complete re-design of the entire low voltage system architecture.

Hoenir

motorguy said:

Hoenir said:

motorguy said:

WellKnownSid said:

motorguy said:

henry24 said:

But isn't that the problem the government are stopping people from driving ICE cars and forcing them into EVs they don't want 

No.

Exactly as booner said - from 2035 (so ten years from now) new ICE cars will be banned.  No one is stopping anyone driving ICE cars after that point, just that you wont be able to buy a brand new one.

Indeed.  Given the average life of a car is 16 years, those that want to can still be happily chugging around in a fossil car until at least 2051.  By which time petrol will only be available in cartons from a hardware store at £95 a litre, and you probably won't be allowed to drive one in any town or city due to emissions, noise, etc, but hey-ho.

Yes, we'll see then how many of these supposed nay saying ICE die hards can suddenly make EVs work for them.

Why is Tesla so reluctant to launch a "people's" car?  Damage it's profit margins?  Blow away the mystic that surrounds the brand making it a must have accessory for the rich. 

Like any car brand they have a target market.

Lets be honest though, they're not going to compete with the chinese on cheap EVs.  Thats where your "peoples car" comes in to play.

Also whats the average PCP and fuel cost of a new car these days?  I'd wager its an easy £350 a month plus deposit and maybe £200 a month on fuel, so £550 a month.  Tesla will lease you a brand new Tesla Model £300 for £500 a month.

£300 to lease a new Tesla ? No chance. Perhaps for a 4/5 year old ex company car. That's been treated like a F1 car. Also will require a hefty depost of at least £3k. With an annual mileage restriction. 

What's the annual insurance cost ? 

Musk didn't invent Tesla. Was just an early stage investor. Likewise he didn't invent Paypal. As clever as he may appear. He appears to lack real creativity and vision. Instead piggybacking on others concepts. 

henry24

Just been reading though some posts from the last couple of days and one I find hard to believe, the poster says that there is less than 8000 petrol/diesel pumps compared to 10x or 80000 ev charges. Is this correct?

[Deleted User]

henry24 said:

Just been reading though some posts from the last couple of days and one I find hard to believe, the poster says that there is less than 8000 petrol/diesel pumps compared to 10x or 80000 ev charges. Is this correct?

Presumably there would have to be given the difference between the time taken to fill up versus the time taken to charge

henry24

I suppose you would fuel a ice car every 5 minutes so 12 every hour compared to 1 ev but he also says that figure doesn't include home charges 

WellKnownSid

Hoenir said:

motorguy said:

Hoenir said:

motorguy said:

WellKnownSid said:

motorguy said:

henry24 said:

But isn't that the problem the government are stopping people from driving ICE cars and forcing them into EVs they don't want 

No.

Exactly as booner said - from 2035 (so ten years from now) new ICE cars will be banned.  No one is stopping anyone driving ICE cars after that point, just that you wont be able to buy a brand new one.

Indeed.  Given the average life of a car is 16 years, those that want to can still be happily chugging around in a fossil car until at least 2051.  By which time petrol will only be available in cartons from a hardware store at £95 a litre, and you probably won't be allowed to drive one in any town or city due to emissions, noise, etc, but hey-ho.

Yes, we'll see then how many of these supposed nay saying ICE die hards can suddenly make EVs work for them.

Why is Tesla so reluctant to launch a "people's" car?  Damage it's profit margins?  Blow away the mystic that surrounds the brand making it a must have accessory for the rich. 

Like any car brand they have a target market.

Lets be honest though, they're not going to compete with the chinese on cheap EVs.  Thats where your "peoples car" comes in to play.

Also whats the average PCP and fuel cost of a new car these days?  I'd wager its an easy £350 a month plus deposit and maybe £200 a month on fuel, so £550 a month.  Tesla will lease you a brand new Tesla Model £300 for £500 a month.

£300 to lease a new Tesla ? No chance. Perhaps for a 4/5 year old ex company car. That's been treated like a F1 car. Also will require a hefty depost of at least £3k. With an annual mileage restriction. 

What was being said was that you can lease a Tesla M3 for £500 a month and save £200 a month on fuel so it's really costing £300 a month.

Same as our car.  The Daily Mail sponsored the depreciation, the Scottish Government are paying the interest and also funded the EVSE, EON are essentially paying for the capital cost of the car.  We'll pay £190 a year when we renew the road tax (sic) in 2026 but it's small beans in comparison.

Yes, that wheeze will be ironed out by successive governments by which time we'll be on our second or third EV.

WellKnownSid

Bonniepurple said:

Costs - EVs are currently cheaper to run. At some point the Government ( of whatever colour) will realise that they are losing a lot of money from petrol and diesel and will need to find a replacement.  That’s when pay per mile will come in.  

I guess the question is... if you were offered an FSCS protected very high rate of interest bank account... would you choose not to put your money there simply because a future government might cancel it?

Goudy

Spies said:

If it wasn't for the media, the hate against EVs wouldn't really exist because people would be able to form their own opinion rather than regurgitating the bile they read. 

Yes, that might account for some negativity towards them from some people but the opposite can be said of all the positive media surrounding them, but it's not the whole reason.
And quite frankly, any suggestion that everyone is brainwashed by the media is insulting themselves and everyone else.

Some of us can weigh up the options that are open to us and make an informed decision without the media.
The problem is certain options just don't weigh up for some and even if they did, some just don't want to be told that and there's not a lot that can be done for that.

Add that to the options will become limited and not by choice and you should understand where some of this is coming from.

As we know, used EV's are particularly cheap compared to the price of new, that means they have depreciated faster, why?
If they are so clean and cheap and fuss free why aren't they more popular? 
Why are governments force to set sales targets and offer/offered government incentives? This is the result of a few daily rags, really?

It seems there's a hole in the positive EV argument here.
I'm not making an argument either way, there are just as many in the negative argument. I'm just pointing out that it appears to some extent, people are voting over this with their wallets no matter what governments are doing or trying to do.

There are answers to these questions, but they aren't "because of the media" particularly when that media works both ways.

We like a choice, in fact we've fought wars over choice. It's hard for a lot of people to take they might not have a choice, even if it is far off in the future or for their or anyone else's good.

We don't mind things being uneven in our society, particularly if it suits us individually or us as the majority. 
When it doesn't and the percentage is higher one side than the other there's generally trouble. It's not unheard of for people to riot or start wars and revolutions over this. 

There are also rather a lot of people that don't like being told what to do even if it might benefit them or society.
The courts and prisons are full of them but you will find them everywhere in life.

There is only so much someone or some government can do to over come these things.
As a person you might argue the point, but the other reasons tend to cause that to fail. Want proof, just reread this thread.

Governments are pretty short term and can be toppled, either forcibly or by voting them out.
(there are some that aren't and can and do dictate change, we aren't one of those, yet)
Their only real option is to drip feed a change over time while still giving an image of choice even though that choice might reduce over time.

There will be a time when this last point "works", but probably not because it works for everyone and of course not everyone will accept it, but it will become more and more accepted (the majority) and between then and now the alternatives will disappear.
Until we get there, these arguments are never going away and for some they won't drop them until, well you know, they aren't here anymore.

 

Herzlos

born_again said:

Herzlos said:

HHarry said:

Get home with a flat battery to find a message from your Mum who needs you urgently, or out on a long road trip, and you are going to have wait 30+ minutes before you can get going.

That's certainly the use case that'll cause the most worry; the long distance family emergency. Especially since most EV's are capped at a pretty low top speed (~81mph) and fuel economy is notable worse at higher speeds. Not that you can exceed 70mph legally or practically in the UK.

https://ev-database.org/imp/cheatsheet/top-speed-electric-car

Rethink 🤣

Effect on fuel economy is the same for all cars is the same at high speeds. 

Is it just the PSA EV's capped at 81 then? I see an awful lot of 'normal' EV's on that list with a 99 limit which seems artificial too.

Fuel economy plummets at speed on all cars, yes, but it's more noticable with an EV since it's not losing 2/3rds of it to heat already and you've got the refuelling issues.

Thrashing a petrol car so you're only getting 150 miles range isn't an issue when you can refuel in 2 minutes. Thrashing an EV so you're only getting 75 miles range is going to suck if it's going to take 30 mins to recharge. Or longer if the battery gets hot.

Herzlos

Bonniepurple said:

Herzlos said:

HHarry said:

Get home with a flat battery to find a message from your Mum who needs you urgently, or out on a long road trip, and you are going to have wait 30+ minutes before you can get going.

That's certainly the use case that'll cause the most worry; the long distance family emergency. Especially since most EV's are capped at a pretty low top speed (~81mph) and fuel economy is notable worse at higher speeds. Not that you can exceed 70mph legally or practically in the UK.

So if it's an only car you may not be able to rush across the country at top speed with no notice.

It's not an issue at all if you've got a 2nd car; a lot of multi-car families tend to have a mix because that gives them the best of both worlds, or if you've got an EV with a long enough range.

The road trip part is less of an issue especially with larger batteries, because it's probably wise to stop for a break anyway. It does mean you may need to plan around charging stops though, so it's definitely a different approach to ICE where you can just stop for pee breaks and switch drivers.

And that would be my worry, especially with the rubbish range on the WAV.  Say I owned it (well, 
leased) and used it to drive to work.  12 miles each way=24 miles.  Say I get home and I need to go out again straight away-hospital (22 miles each way=44 miles)/discovering that the cats have eaten their expensive, hard to get food (min 12 miles each way)/husband too tired to drive home (50 miles round trip) - I would be out of charge and stranded.  The cold hurts my joints and I would end up too stiff to drive.

That's the other big problem around disabled users and EVs - there aren't any blue badge charging spaces currently and not many charging spaces are accessible especially for a bigger WAV.

Normally I'd say "Ah, but that won't be a problem because you could charge at work or hospital and thus not really reduce the range." But that only works if you can (a) connect the car to the charger and (b) get out of it.

Which is why it irks me that you can't get the Vivaro Life with the 75kwh battery you can get in the commercial van which boosts the range from 140 to 200 miles. It means when we're looking for a new van we'll probably go for the commercial crew cab, but it'd make a miserable WAV depending on how it's set up.

It'd work for us because we can sit in a regular seat and put the wheelchair in the cargo space, but with no windows I wouldn't like to be sat in a chair in the same space when it was moving. Potentially you could take the bulkhead out and mount the wheelchair where the 2nd row of seats would be though.