Gross misconduct dismissal

Undervalued

gwynlas said:

Whistle blowers are often seen as trouble makers and management appear to have used her own actions against her. 
If she is a member of a union she could possibly go for wrongful dismissal otherwise she is on her own.

As above, it is not whistleblowing in the legal sense.

Nor is it wrongful dismissal (which is effectively breach of contract). It might (just possibly) be unfair dismissal.

MrMagic

I'll tell you the basics but without mentioning any names or locations. I've learned there has been an appeal, and who knows, it could potentially be taken further.

The situation was a staff member found sleeping on duty. The person I know was not active staff member on shift in that area at the time. They were in a different area, and they were only alerted when they heard an unusual noise which turned out to be an alarm which the other person had slept through. My friend found the chap sleeping and tried to wake him, but was unsuccessful. She could not enter all areas of the building, and any spare keys were locked away. She did what they could in terms of going around to do checks, before returning to area she had come to search for phone contacts. At that point, which I understand was some minuites after the first one, the alarm sounded again. This time the person got up and answered it, so my friend was assured the situation had been responded to. She kept alert for alarms or other happenings, and then reported circumstances to the first manager who entered the site.

I'm not sure whether that would count as a sufficient response or not but I know there are lots of details she presented to the appeal. Thats for the appeal to decide I suppose. It all been internal within the company so far. I was more interested in whether anyone had been in a similar dismissal situation and what to expect if appeals are taken further, or in the worst case scenario how she should go about declaring a dismissal if she applies for roles in future.

LightFlare

MrMagic said:

I'll tell you the basics but without mentioning any names or locations. I've learned there has been an appeal, and who knows, it could potentially be taken further.

The situation was a staff member found sleeping on duty. The person I know was not active staff member on shift in that area at the time. They were in a different area, and they were only alerted when they heard an unusual noise which turned out to be an alarm which the other person had slept through. My friend found the chap sleeping and tried to wake him, but was unsuccessful. She could not enter all areas of the building, and any spare keys were locked away. She did what they could in terms of going around to do checks, before returning to area she had come to search for phone contacts. At that point, which I understand was some minuites after the first one, the alarm sounded again. This time the person got up and answered it, so my friend was assured the situation had been responded to. She kept alert for alarms or other happenings, and then reported circumstances to the first manager who entered the site.

I'm not sure whether that would count as a sufficient response or not but I know there are lots of details she presented to the appeal. Thats for the appeal to decide I suppose. It all been internal within the company so far. I was more interested in whether anyone had been in a similar dismissal situation and what to expect if appeals are taken further, or in the worst case scenario how she should go about declaring a dismissal if she applies for roles in future.

That staff member may have been in need of medical assistance as well

How hard did she try to wake him ?

Personally if I was in that situation, no one healthy would be able to continue sleeping if I was trying to wake them

So not only was someone in need of assistance, potentially also a staff member yet she spent valuable time wandering around instead of dialling 999

Depending on the type of institution and her actual role within then still difficult to judge

MrMagic

LightFlare said:

How hard did she try to wake him ?

Personally if I was in that situation, no one healthy would be able to continue sleeping if I was trying to wake them

So not only was someone in need of assistance, potentially also a staff member yet she spent valuable time wandering around instead of dialling 999

Depending on the type of institution and her actual role within then still difficult to judge

Thats what I asked as well. Apparently the person was clearly breathing and snoring away at one point too. They were in a side room in a corner chair with the door shut. My friend stopped short of physically dragging the person off the chair. They didn't beleive it was a medical emergency so they didnt think it appropriate to use force immediately. The pros and cons of this can be debated. Because they had been aware of an alarm, they decided to carry out some checks as the priority. Is that an awful decision worthy of dismissal? Arguably, arguably not, I suppose. Its a very odd situation. 

Undervalued

MrMagic said:

LightFlare said:

How hard did she try to wake him ?

Personally if I was in that situation, no one healthy would be able to continue sleeping if I was trying to wake them

So not only was someone in need of assistance, potentially also a staff member yet she spent valuable time wandering around instead of dialling 999

Depending on the type of institution and her actual role within then still difficult to judge

Thats what I asked as well. Apparently the person was clearly breathing and snoring away at one point too. They were in a side room in a corner chair with the door shut. My friend stopped short of physically dragging the person off the chair. They didn't beleive it was a medical emergency so they didnt think it appropriate to use force immediately. The pros and cons of this can be debated. Because they had been aware of an alarm, they decided to carry out some checks as the priority. Is that an awful decision worthy of dismissal? Arguably, arguably not, I suppose. Its a very odd situation. 

Were they qualified and / or in a position to accurately know if it was a medical emergency or not?

If their action (or inaction) was contrary to their training / procedures then it quite possibly justifies dismissal.

lincroft1710

Now having been given more detail, I can fully understand why she was dismissed. 

mr_stripey

did the sleeping employee also get sacked?

MrMagic

Basic first aid training. She is quite sure they had just tucked themselves away to get some sleep. Told me she has raised a medical emergency before, but this was quite different.

The dismissal letter said she 'should have done more', but not specifically on the waking the person up point. The company stopped short of stating which actions were wrong but they seem to be more concerned about alarms not attended to quickly. Should she have used force on the person? Was the definitive failure not trying to proceed to try to contact management immediately, even when she saw the person had  resumed their duties? Thats the bit which doesnt sit right with me, but perhaps its just my own ignorance and they are not required to.

Did the sleeping person get sacked? She knows they were still working there the following day alongside management, including the person she reported it to. As of today? Not a clue. When she approached the person who had been asleep, apparently they had a blase attitude along the lines of 'fine do what you want'. Thats a bit of a red flag for me, particularly after she mentioned the person is known to be quite close others in the organisation. The way it appears to have eventually been esclated within the organisation is pretty shocking actually, but thats another story. 

Jami74

So if she hadn't reported her colleague sleeping, she'd still have a job?

MrMagic

Jami74 said:

So if she hadn't reported her colleague sleeping, she'd still have a job?

Oddly that does appear to be the case.