Am I being constructively dismissed?

Blushing_Money_Spender

In 2017, I joined a company where I managed two separate locations. In 2023, due to the volume of direct reports (120+) my role was split into two and essentially a manager was placed at each location and subsequently reducing my direct reports (60 at each location) with both Managerial roles reporting into the Department (It's worth noting that the other Manager was fulfilling this post on a fixed term basis as the original manager entered into a 2 year secondment).

A new 'Head of' was introduced in 2024 replacing the previous, and 10 months into the role, I decided to go on secondment myself to another department where I felt I could add value and experience to support the new team (my substantive was re-advertised). Within a week of going into this role, a 'new' job opportunity was published. However; although the job title was different, it is word for word exactly the same as my substantive position albeit across both locations.

I've composed an email to the Head of department requesting how this role will impact my substantive position and whether I will then report into it, as well as whether it would be worth me applying for it myself considering it is one that I have previously performed. 

I received a response informing me that my substantive post will not be impacted but no response in relation to new reporting line and/or whether I should apply. 

To put this into further context, it worth noting that the 'other' manager who was covering a 2-year secondment at the other location to me has informed me that the 'Head of' is creating this role specifically for her.

I can't help but think that should I decide to return to my substantive post at the end of my secondment, I will now be reporting into this new manager. Not only that, but may lead to my post then being made redundant.

I'm not entirely sure whether I needed to be consulted but feel rather offended that these plans were not discussed with me directly being a permanent employee but appear to have been discussed with the manager that was in a secondment.

Should I be concerned? Is the 'Head of' approaching this in the wrong way? Could this potentially lead to constructive dismissal? Any advice would be very welcome.

If any other information is required, please feel free to ask.

Thank you

tacpot12

The information you need is here: Claiming constructive dismissal - Citizens Advice

The important point is that it has to be a serious breach of contract AND you resigned because of it. If you don't resign, you can't claim constructive dismissal. Are you going to resign?  

Blushing_Money_Spender

tacpot12 said:

The information you need is here: Claiming constructive dismissal - Citizens Advice

The important point is that it has to be a serious breach of contract AND you resigned because of it. If you don't resign, you can't claim constructive dismissal. Are you going to resign?  

If I go back to my substantive post and am informed that I'm now reporting into a new Manager (which was my previous role) then yes, I will resign.

It feels very wrong in the way this has been done but I'm not an employment expert, which was why I was seeking advice. Appreciate the time you have taken to read and reply to my message.

Thank you.

tacpot12

It's reasonable to feel offended by more senior managers when they mishandle sensitive decisions; they are paid more and should be more adept, but they are only human.  

Their approach may or may not reflect a complete lack of esteem for your efforts on behalf of the company. I think it would be rash to resign without having an informal discussion with them. I have written on MSE before that the only way you really know whether your boss values you is when you look at your payslip! Everything else is subjective opinion. 

Mr.Generous

The case required for constructive dismissal is much greater than unfair dismissal. Has to be such unreasonable behaviour by employer that you had to resign.

gmje

Do you really expect to be included in future plans for a team you left behind. In my experience of secondment you are not normally guaranteed return to you old post but one similar at the same pay grade etc. You say youve taken the secondment where you felt you could add value etc............why didnt you do that in your original role? was something else working against you? if so did you complain ,is it documented ? Did you feel you were being undermined . The 2nd manager who claims a role is being created for her maybe wrong,but there again that shouldn't happen and yes you should have the opportunity to apply. Put yourself in my shoes and pretend im your line manager ........you have ditched us for pastures new, given me a problem,now I must find a solution .............thats not constructive dismissal . sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.  

Emmia

Blushing_Money_Spender said:

In 2017, I joined a company where I managed two separate locations. In 2023, due to the volume of direct reports (120+) my role was split into two and essentially a manager was placed at each location and subsequently reducing my direct reports (60 at each location) with both Managerial roles reporting into the Department (It's worth noting that the other Manager was fulfilling this post on a fixed term basis as the original manager entered into a 2 year secondment).

A new 'Head of' was introduced in 2024 replacing the previous, and 10 months into the role, I decided to go on secondment myself to another department where I felt I could add value and experience to support the new team (my substantive was re-advertised). Within a week of going into this role, a 'new' job opportunity was published. However; although the job title was different, it is word for word exactly the same as my substantive position albeit across both locations.

I've composed an email to the Head of department requesting how this role will impact my substantive position and whether I will then report into it, as well as whether it would be worth me applying for it myself considering it is one that I have previously performed. 

I received a response informing me that my substantive post will not be impacted but no response in relation to new reporting line and/or whether I should apply. 

To put this into further context, it worth noting that the 'other' manager who was covering a 2-year secondment at the other location to me has informed me that the 'Head of' is creating this role specifically for her.

I can't help but think that should I decide to return to my substantive post at the end of my secondment, I will now be reporting into this new manager. Not only that, but may lead to my post then being made redundant.

I'm not entirely sure whether I needed to be consulted but feel rather offended that these plans were not discussed with me directly being a permanent employee but appear to have been discussed with the manager that was in a secondment.

Should I be concerned? Is the 'Head of' approaching this in the wrong way? Could this potentially lead to constructive dismissal? Any advice would be very welcome.

If any other information is required, please feel free to ask.

Thank you

Did you move into your secondment on the basis your previous role could be returned to, or on the basis you'd be found another role at the same grade when your secondment ends?

Your substantive grade being advertised indicates that you left without a direct route back to your previous role, but ongoing employment at your current grade.

Blushing_Money_Spender

gmje said:

Do you really expect to be included in future plans for a team you left behind. In my experience of secondment you are not normally guaranteed return to you old post but one similar at the same pay grade etc. You say youve taken the secondment where you felt you could add value etc............why didnt you do that in your original role? was something else working against you? if so did you complain ,is it documented ? Did you feel you were being undermined . The 2nd manager who claims a role is being created for her maybe wrong,but there again that shouldn't happen and yes you should have the opportunity to apply. Put yourself in my shoes and pretend im your line manager ........you have ditched us for pastures new, given me a problem,now I must find a solution .............thats not constructive dismissal . sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.  

I appreciate your honest opinion. 

In terms of adding value to my seconded position and why I didn't I do that in my original role. I did, I put my heart and sole into that role for over 7 years and I felt that a new challenge was required. As I said, it's a seconded position and I have the potential to return at the end of 6-months with hopefully a fresh new pair of eyes where I could potentially a new fresh vision and approach.

In terms of any conflict with my line manager, I have always been a believer in open discussion, so where and when it was required, I addressed this informally on a face-to-face basis and also backed up with email. 

Being a Manager can be difficult at times and whether or not there are solutions to find, common courtesy would have been to discuss these changes with me. I treat colleagues how I would like to be treated where and when it's appropriate but understanding that I would be delivering on behalf of the company also. 

In the extract that I provided, I'm not saying it is or isn't constructive dismissal. I don't know what it is, I feel aggrieved that this role was my previous responsibility but based on workloads at the time and the inability to line manage 120+ people, the role was split into two separate managers and now they want to bring my role back. 

I would have been able to efficiently perform the role before it was separated if I had been given the two managers they had split it into.

The way this has been done, I don't feel I would be able to go back to my substantive post given how I have been treated particularly with the disregard.

Blushing_Money_Spender

Emmia said:

Blushing_Money_Spender said:

In 2017, I joined a company where I managed two separate locations. In 2023, due to the volume of direct reports (120+) my role was split into two and essentially a manager was placed at each location and subsequently reducing my direct reports (60 at each location) with both Managerial roles reporting into the Department (It's worth noting that the other Manager was fulfilling this post on a fixed term basis as the original manager entered into a 2 year secondment).

A new 'Head of' was introduced in 2024 replacing the previous, and 10 months into the role, I decided to go on secondment myself to another department where I felt I could add value and experience to support the new team (my substantive was re-advertised). Within a week of going into this role, a 'new' job opportunity was published. However; although the job title was different, it is word for word exactly the same as my substantive position albeit across both locations.

I've composed an email to the Head of department requesting how this role will impact my substantive position and whether I will then report into it, as well as whether it would be worth me applying for it myself considering it is one that I have previously performed. 

I received a response informing me that my substantive post will not be impacted but no response in relation to new reporting line and/or whether I should apply. 

To put this into further context, it worth noting that the 'other' manager who was covering a 2-year secondment at the other location to me has informed me that the 'Head of' is creating this role specifically for her.

I can't help but think that should I decide to return to my substantive post at the end of my secondment, I will now be reporting into this new manager. Not only that, but may lead to my post then being made redundant.

I'm not entirely sure whether I needed to be consulted but feel rather offended that these plans were not discussed with me directly being a permanent employee but appear to have been discussed with the manager that was in a secondment.

Should I be concerned? Is the 'Head of' approaching this in the wrong way? Could this potentially lead to constructive dismissal? Any advice would be very welcome.

If any other information is required, please feel free to ask.

Thank you

Did you move into your secondment on the basis your previous role could be returned to, or on the basis you'd be found another role at the same grade when your secondment ends?

Your substantive grade being advertised indicates that you left without a direct route back to your previous role, but ongoing employment at your current grade.

My secondment is for 6-months to prove the concept of the role is required. There is potential that the role may be advertised formally at the end of the 6-months but for all intense and purposes, it is agreed that I will return at the end of 6-months.

Blushing_Money_Spender

Blushing_Money_Spender said:

Emmia said:

Blushing_Money_Spender said:

In 2017, I joined a company where I managed two separate locations. In 2023, due to the volume of direct reports (120+) my role was split into two and essentially a manager was placed at each location and subsequently reducing my direct reports (60 at each location) with both Managerial roles reporting into the Department (It's worth noting that the other Manager was fulfilling this post on a fixed term basis as the original manager entered into a 2 year secondment).

A new 'Head of' was introduced in 2024 replacing the previous, and 10 months into the role, I decided to go on secondment myself to another department where I felt I could add value and experience to support the new team (my substantive was re-advertised). Within a week of going into this role, a 'new' job opportunity was published. However; although the job title was different, it is word for word exactly the same as my substantive position albeit across both locations.

I've composed an email to the Head of department requesting how this role will impact my substantive position and whether I will then report into it, as well as whether it would be worth me applying for it myself considering it is one that I have previously performed. 

I received a response informing me that my substantive post will not be impacted but no response in relation to new reporting line and/or whether I should apply. 

To put this into further context, it worth noting that the 'other' manager who was covering a 2-year secondment at the other location to me has informed me that the 'Head of' is creating this role specifically for her.

I can't help but think that should I decide to return to my substantive post at the end of my secondment, I will now be reporting into this new manager. Not only that, but may lead to my post then being made redundant.

I'm not entirely sure whether I needed to be consulted but feel rather offended that these plans were not discussed with me directly being a permanent employee but appear to have been discussed with the manager that was in a secondment.

Should I be concerned? Is the 'Head of' approaching this in the wrong way? Could this potentially lead to constructive dismissal? Any advice would be very welcome.

If any other information is required, please feel free to ask.

Thank you

Did you move into your secondment on the basis your previous role could be returned to, or on the basis you'd be found another role at the same grade when your secondment ends?

Your substantive grade being advertised indicates that you left without a direct route back to your previous role, but ongoing employment at your current grade.

My secondment is for 6-months to prove the concept of the role is required. There is potential that the role may be advertised formally at the end of the 6-months but for all intense and purposes, it is agreed that I will return at the end of 6-months.

For clarity, my role being advertised whilst I'm on secondment for 6-months is fine as it's advertised as a 6-month secondment as expected.

On-the-coast

I’ve had with various ups & downs over the past decade with my current employer.  I’ve managed people concurrently on multiple sites around the world but i currently have no reports.   I probably could have taken umbrage a few times but it’s not been personal, changes have been driven by global reorganisations and the company has been careful to not upset me more than they have too.  The result is that I’m currently less stressed and better paid than I was a few years ago.   My view is that at the level you operate at you make your own “luck” and live with the consequences.