State Pension and Personal allowance

Dazed_and_C0nfused

badmemory said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

badmemory said:

Well I am just grateful that my income is large enough to need to pay tax although I don't like simple assessment as so far it has not been correct.  What is more worrying is that the one for 2023-24 has still not arrived yet, so I'm worrying that they have stopped it without notification.  I did expect it to be late but not by 3 months.

Stopped what 🤔

Frustrating though it may be you always get 3 months to pay a Simple Assessment liability so the later it's issued the more time the money needed to pay it can be in your bank account earning interest 😉

Sorry should have explained.  I spoke to the simple assessment line as I couldn't access my gateway account.  They told me there are no entries at all for 23-24.  No pension, no state pension & no taxable interest.  So I am feeling a little paranoid that they have decided I no longer exist & they will stop my state pension.  I have had nothing since the new tax code for this year which being a K code is not enough to take all the tax I owe so I should have a bill.  I was worried because I thought it might have got lost in the post & I was heading for penalties.  Not being able to access my gateway account did not help.  I couldn't open a new one because I already have one but I couldn't access the old one because I hadn't used it for so long they deleted it.  Sorry for the essay!

I suspect you are overthinking this.

HMRC aren't responsible for paying the State Pension so can't stop it being paid.

HMRC are responsible for Simple Assessment but have never imposed penalties on unpaid Simple Assessment debts.  I'm not even sure there is any legislation that would allow them to do that.  And you don't have a debt anyway if no Simple Assesment calculation has been issued.

https://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-nic/how-tax-collected/simple-assessment#5

I have never heard of a Personal Tax Account being deleted, I don't think that's a thing.  Accessing your account might be difficult but should be possible.  And you may learn more once you can sort that.  I suspect you have spoken to someone in the wrong department, not someone who can check your income tax situation.

If you have interest then things might be delayed slightly by this process?

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/paye-manual/paye96010

xylophone

I know that and likely the OP knows that but it does strike me as bizarre when everybody gets on the case of non-doms not paying UK tax, we continue to subsidise non-dom pensioners who similarly do not pay UK tax, yet expect he full benefits of the UK tax payer funded systems, including returning when they need NHS treatment or benefits.

If you know that and suspect the OP knows that then why make the sweeping statement?

With regard to the question of increase/no increase on state pension, the people who have emigrated qualified for their state pensions 

during their working lives. 

 

It seems to me that qualifying included the right to subsequent increases, regardless of which country you chose for your retirement.

I imagine that you would feel rather sour if your occupational pension (assuming you have one) were to be restricted as to 

increases if you emigrated?

I don't know the rules regarding qualifying for NHS treatment  after emigration but in principle why not?

badmemory

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

badmemory said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

badmemory said:

Well I am just grateful that my income is large enough to need to pay tax although I don't like simple assessment as so far it has not been correct.  What is more worrying is that the one for 2023-24 has still not arrived yet, so I'm worrying that they have stopped it without notification.  I did expect it to be late but not by 3 months.

Stopped what 🤔

Frustrating though it may be you always get 3 months to pay a Simple Assessment liability so the later it's issued the more time the money needed to pay it can be in your bank account earning interest 😉

Sorry should have explained.  I spoke to the simple assessment line as I couldn't access my gateway account.  They told me there are no entries at all for 23-24.  No pension, no state pension & no taxable interest.  So I am feeling a little paranoid that they have decided I no longer exist & they will stop my state pension.  I have had nothing since the new tax code for this year which being a K code is not enough to take all the tax I owe so I should have a bill.  I was worried because I thought it might have got lost in the post & I was heading for penalties.  Not being able to access my gateway account did not help.  I couldn't open a new one because I already have one but I couldn't access the old one because I hadn't used it for so long they deleted it.  Sorry for the essay!

I suspect you are overthinking this.

HMRC aren't responsible for paying the State Pension so can't stop it being paid.

HMRC are responsible for Simple Assessment but have never imposed penalties on unpaid Simple Assessment debts.  I'm not even sure there is any legislation that would allow them to do that.  And you don't have a debt anyway if no Simple Assesment calculation has been issued.

https://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-nic/how-tax-collected/simple-assessment#5

I have never heard of a Personal Tax Account being deleted, I don't think that's a thing.  Accessing your account might be difficult but should be possible.  And you may learn more once you can sort that.  I suspect you have spoken to someone in the wrong department, not someone who can check your income tax situation.

If you have interest then things might be delayed slightly by this process?

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/paye-manual/paye96010

Thank you for this.  You are right as I do tend to overthink things normally & when it is official things then I do go overboard.  This has eased my mind somewhat.

Linton

The problem with taxing SP above the tax allowance is that tax is not deducted at source, it has to be recovered from decreasing the tax codes of one's other income streams.  Now if one does not have these other income streams how does HMRC actually get hold of the tax?  They will not want to have to, in the ultimate, take very poor OAPs with SP above the tax threshold and minimal other income to court.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Linton said:

The problem with taxing SP above the trax allowance is that tax is not deducted at source, it has to be recovered from decreasing the tax codes of one's other income streams.  Now if one does not have these other income streams how does HMRC actually get hold of the tax?  They will not want to have to, in the ultimate, take very poor OAPs with SP above the tax threshold and minimal other income to court.

This has been happening for a very long time, it's nothing new.

The number of people affected might be increasing a fair bit because of the frozen Personal Allowance and recent largish increases to the State Pension but it's definitely not a new phenomenon.

pinnks

Linton said:

The problem with taxing SP above the tax allowance is that tax is not deducted at source, it has to be recovered from decreasing the tax codes of one's other income streams.  Now if one does not have these other income streams how does HMRC actually get hold of the tax?  They will not want to have to, in the ultimate, take very poor OAPs with SP above the tax threshold and minimal other income to court.

HMRC will use their Simple Assessment power and just send a bill on a PA302. 

Linton

pinnks said:

Linton said:

The problem with taxing SP above the tax allowance is that tax is not deducted at source, it has to be recovered from decreasing the tax codes of one's other income streams.  Now if one does not have these other income streams how does HMRC actually get hold of the tax?  They will not want to have to, in the ultimate, take very poor OAPs with SP above the tax threshold and minimal other income to court.

HMRC will use their Simple Assessment power and just send a bill on a PA302. 

And if the bill is not paid, take them to court?  Bearing in mind one is talking about what for most people not in the poor pensioners position would be trivial amounts of money.  The tax system tends to ensure that HMRC give refunds more than try to recover insufficient tax, the latter being much more expensive.

Sarahspangles

Linton said:

The problem with taxing SP above the tax allowance is that tax is not deducted at source, it has to be recovered from decreasing the tax codes of one's other income streams.  Now if one does not have these other income streams how does HMRC actually get hold of the tax?  They will not want to have to, in the ultimate, take very poor OAPs with SP above the tax threshold and minimal other income to court.

Simple Assessment was introduced from September 2017 specifically for this scenario. It was rolled out first to pensioners newly in receipt of State pension.  So some pensioners will now have been on this regime for seven years. There will be over 500k this year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/issue-briefing-simple-assessment-ending-the-tax-return/simple-assessment-ending-the-tax-return

This group does not have to complete a full Self Assessment submission, and the tax is due in the January after the end of tax year or later, depending on when the amount is finalised. It’s not collected through their tax code. They can set up a weekly or monthly direct debit to pay it.

pinnks

Linton said:

pinnks said:

Linton said:

The problem with taxing SP above the tax allowance is that tax is not deducted at source, it has to be recovered from decreasing the tax codes of one's other income streams.  Now if one does not have these other income streams how does HMRC actually get hold of the tax?  They will not want to have to, in the ultimate, take very poor OAPs with SP above the tax threshold and minimal other income to court.

HMRC will use their Simple Assessment power and just send a bill on a PA302. 

And if the bill is not paid, take them to court?  Bearing in mind one is talking about what for most people not in the poor pensioners position would be trivial amounts of money.  The tax system tends to ensure that HMRC give refunds more than try to recover insufficient tax, the latter being much more expensive.

I fail to see the issue.  If a person is taxed and fails to pay the tax then HMRC's processes will kick in to pursue or ultimately write off the debt.  The age of the person is immaterial.

badmemory

The problem is that in dealing with increasingly elderly people that the simple assessment as in my case has never been correct.  It isn't much out but the DWP does not notify HMRC of the correct state pension figure & you can't get much more basic than that.  I always worried that as I aged doing self assessment would become a problem.  So I thought simple assessment would be a good thing.  Many years ago I worked doing figures (before computers & even electronic calculators) it was always acknowledged then that calculating figures is a lot easier than checking figures.  How many have paid too much tax using simple assessment just because "they" said so.

Just to give an idea.  For every £1 the state pension rises in a week a tax paying pensioner using simple assessment will overpay 20p.  Doesn't sound like much.  That also doesn't take into account that when you file self assessment they knock the pennies off (round down) all amounts but with simple assessment they add them all up.  Not much I agree, but why should I pay more tax than someone with the same income.

Who said tax doesn't have to be taxing?