SWR Come What May

MK62

I think the thing to remember is that you need a plan to deal with a "worst case" type scenario, but you don't need to actually deal with it unless it happens.

OldScientist

Linton said:

OldScientist said:

NoMore said:

jim8888 said:

NoMore said:

Its a deceptively simple answer to a extremely difficult problem, unfortunately you can't guarantee its the right answer.

I'm also pretty sure 90% (outside this thread/forum) misunderstand it and think it means 4% (or whatever SWR%) of your remaining portfolio every year not the correct method which is 4% of the initial portfolio and then adjust that number each year for inflation such that your spending power each year remains the same. 

Thanks for that clarification. I'd be in the 90% and I thought I knew about this stuff !

As I said its a common misconception, but if you did the 4% of remaining each year, your withdrawals could vary wildly depending on gains/losses. The SWR avoids this by setting a initial amount and then adjusting it for inflation. The idea is like a yearly wage its predictable what you will get, with a 4% of remaining you have no idea year to year what you will be withdrawing.

The predictability (or otherwise) of income is a critical point. Withdrawal strategies can broadly be divided into three categories
1) Inflation adjusted (of which constant inflation adjusted, i.e., SWR is the best known). From an income point of view, the advantage is that the income is known, but the disadvantage is that how long the income will last for is not.
2) Percentage of portfolio (e.g., constant percentage, bogleheads VPW or ABW, 1/N, possibly natural yield, etc.). The advantage is that, mathematically, income will be delivered for a lifetime, but the disadvantage is that real income will vary from year to year and, potentially, become small.
3) Hybrid methods, and there are loads, combine elements of inflation linked and percentage of portfolio methods (e.g., Guyton Klinger, Vanguard Dynamic, Carlson's endowment, Bengen’s floor and ceiling, etc.). Income is less variable than in the percentage of portfolio case (although can still get small in poor retirements) and there is less chance of portfolio exhaustion than in the inflation adjusted case.

However, whether you care about variability or failure in drawdown income depends on what fraction it forms of your spending (whether essential or the total of essential and discretionary).

For example

For a couple with two state pensions (£23k), and a combined pension pot of £150k (and an inflation adjusted income of ~£4.5k). If their state pensions cover their essential spending and at least some of their discretionary, then the drawdown income is just ‘icing on the cake’ and pretty well any withdrawal strategy could be adopted because variability or failure can easily be accommodated. I suspect a number of the denizens on these boards fall into this category.

However, for a couple with two state pensions (£23k), a combined pension pot of £800k (inflation adjusted income ~£24k), an essential spend of £40k, and a discretionary spend of a further £10k, things are a bit tricker since a portfolio failure would leave them with insufficient income to support their essential spend and percentage of portfolio methods might leave them short in some years. Playing around with different hybrid approaches might provide a solution, but there is always the possibility of failure. However, purchasing sufficient RPI protected income annuity to provide most or all of the essential spend (i.e., up to an additional £17k costing around £400-£450k for a joint life – even if payout rates fall back to 3%, this would still ‘only’ cost £560k) and then withdrawing the remaining pot using whatever method desired. Of course, an alternative approach might be to revise what is considered essential spending and what discretionary.

There is a 4th strategy.  Plan on taking what you need, invest for long term growth with a high global diversification, and ensure you have sufficient slack to last n years with zero equity growth.  Choose "n" and "need" on the basis of what you can afford and are prepared to accept in the knowledge that there is no investment based strategy that will work in all conceivable circumstances.

In my view the academic strategies are fine to boost the authors professional ratings, book sales, and earnings from the lecture circuit./  To be fair they may be helpful in giving you the confidence to jump.  But I find it difficult to believe that any but a very small number of people will put any of them into practice over the long term.

Does anyone here who has retired actually use an academic strategy? If so which one?

IMV, defining 'what you can afford' is one element of the withdrawal strategies.

In answer to your question, yes
1) Floor provided by an inflation protected DB pension (which will be added to once in receipt of the SP)
2) Portfolio withdrawals using a modified version of VPW (so withdrawals vary from year to year).
3) Inflation linked ladder (and life insurance) to cover the period before my OH gets their SP in the event of my death.

I don't know whether 1) counts as an 'academic' strategy, but had I not had a DB pension, I would have built as sufficient flooring using an annuity instead (does buying an annuity count as an 'academic' strategy?).

MK62

Well, if you class VPW as an "academic strategy" then you've already modified it to suit your circumstances...😉

Linton

OldScientist said:

Linton said:

OldScientist said:

NoMore said:

jim8888 said:

NoMore said:

Its a deceptively simple answer to a extremely difficult problem, unfortunately you can't guarantee its the right answer.

I'm also pretty sure 90% (outside this thread/forum) misunderstand it and think it means 4% (or whatever SWR%) of your remaining portfolio every year not the correct method which is 4% of the initial portfolio and then adjust that number each year for inflation such that your spending power each year remains the same. 

Thanks for that clarification. I'd be in the 90% and I thought I knew about this stuff !

As I said its a common misconception, but if you did the 4% of remaining each year, your withdrawals could vary wildly depending on gains/losses. The SWR avoids this by setting a initial amount and then adjusting it for inflation. The idea is like a yearly wage its predictable what you will get, with a 4% of remaining you have no idea year to year what you will be withdrawing.

The predictability (or otherwise) of income is a critical point. Withdrawal strategies can broadly be divided into three categories
1) Inflation adjusted (of which constant inflation adjusted, i.e., SWR is the best known). From an income point of view, the advantage is that the income is known, but the disadvantage is that how long the income will last for is not.
2) Percentage of portfolio (e.g., constant percentage, bogleheads VPW or ABW, 1/N, possibly natural yield, etc.). The advantage is that, mathematically, income will be delivered for a lifetime, but the disadvantage is that real income will vary from year to year and, potentially, become small.
3) Hybrid methods, and there are loads, combine elements of inflation linked and percentage of portfolio methods (e.g., Guyton Klinger, Vanguard Dynamic, Carlson's endowment, Bengen’s floor and ceiling, etc.). Income is less variable than in the percentage of portfolio case (although can still get small in poor retirements) and there is less chance of portfolio exhaustion than in the inflation adjusted case.

However, whether you care about variability or failure in drawdown income depends on what fraction it forms of your spending (whether essential or the total of essential and discretionary).

For example

For a couple with two state pensions (£23k), and a combined pension pot of £150k (and an inflation adjusted income of ~£4.5k). If their state pensions cover their essential spending and at least some of their discretionary, then the drawdown income is just ‘icing on the cake’ and pretty well any withdrawal strategy could be adopted because variability or failure can easily be accommodated. I suspect a number of the denizens on these boards fall into this category.

However, for a couple with two state pensions (£23k), a combined pension pot of £800k (inflation adjusted income ~£24k), an essential spend of £40k, and a discretionary spend of a further £10k, things are a bit tricker since a portfolio failure would leave them with insufficient income to support their essential spend and percentage of portfolio methods might leave them short in some years. Playing around with different hybrid approaches might provide a solution, but there is always the possibility of failure. However, purchasing sufficient RPI protected income annuity to provide most or all of the essential spend (i.e., up to an additional £17k costing around £400-£450k for a joint life – even if payout rates fall back to 3%, this would still ‘only’ cost £560k) and then withdrawing the remaining pot using whatever method desired. Of course, an alternative approach might be to revise what is considered essential spending and what discretionary.

There is a 4th strategy.  Plan on taking what you need, invest for long term growth with a high global diversification, and ensure you have sufficient slack to last n years with zero equity growth.  Choose "n" and "need" on the basis of what you can afford and are prepared to accept in the knowledge that there is no investment based strategy that will work in all conceivable circumstances.

In my view the academic strategies are fine to boost the authors professional ratings, book sales, and earnings from the lecture circuit./  To be fair they may be helpful in giving you the confidence to jump.  But I find it difficult to believe that any but a very small number of people will put any of them into practice over the long term.

Does anyone here who has retired actually use an academic strategy? If so which one?

IMV, defining 'what you can afford' is one element of the withdrawal strategies.

In answer to your question, yes
1) Floor provided by an inflation protected DB pension (which will be added to once in receipt of the SP)
2) Portfolio withdrawals using a modified version of VPW (so withdrawals vary from year to year).
3) Inflation linked ladder (and life insurance) to cover the period before my OH gets their SP in the event of my death.

I don't know whether 1) counts as an 'academic' strategy, but had I not had a DB pension, I would have built as sufficient flooring using an annuity instead (does buying an annuity count as an 'academic' strategy?).

I am solely referring to long term strategies intended to manage drawdown from volatile investments. If you can meet your needs without it that is fine but its not what I am discussing..

As a basic principle I would argue against any strategy that imposes variable expenditure over time depending on the then current economic circumstances.  So that would rule out VPW (Variable % withdrawal) unless one had a sufficiently large buffer to cover the difficult times. 

Sarahspangles

kempiejon said:

The problem with procrastiplanning for retirement is that time doesn’t pause. We don’t know how long we will be retired, but we do know that remaining time is shortening.

I know I stayed at work in 2018 and 2019 mostly because there was a chance of my department review offering some redundancies. I didn't hate work, I was checking my funds would support me while sticking as much as I could in my pension for a couple of years. My plan was leave in April 2020. I was lucky not to have pulled the trigger when covid hit. I was also lucky enough for my job to be safe so on full pay I had very little to do during all the lockdowns and restrictions except some DIY and gardening. But pre-covid I was very aware in 2018/19 that I suffered from one more year syndrome, wanting a little bit more in the pot, bloody lucky I did.

I agree with the statement copied from @Sarahspangles Wanna be retirees need to know they can pull the trigger and have the courage to do so.

In 2018 and 2019, in project terms you were balancing the opportunity cost of potentially being selected for redundancy against the benefit of having your time back. It's never just a financial decision - you didn't hate work and you had a target date in mind that you were likely to survive to see.

Covid wasn't on the risk register of my live project in 2020. It ought to have been, as the organisation I then worked for had previously been impacted by foot and mouth disease.  Ironically I spent the first day of lockdown in bed with the beginnings of a Covid infection, rewriting all my board papers to get agreement to mothball the project.

MK62

In the end, in drawdown, variable expenditure (or income) may become unavoidable, unless your draw rate is so low that it can withstand almost any return/inflation scenario.......but then you'd be likely living well below your means unnecessarily.

Secret2ndAccount

[Deleted User] said:

Let's pretend 4% is the right number.  What if you did the higher of (i) 4% plus inflation, or (ii) 4% of the pot at the end of the year?   Why isn't that in the 4% SWR rather than just 4% plus inflation.

So assume first year inflation is 10% and individual A's pot was £100,000 on retirement.  At the end of the first year it has gone up to £150,000.  Under the 4% SWR and individual can withdraw £4,000 in the first year and £4,400 in the second.

Individual B, who is the same age as A, retires a year later (at the end of the first year) with a pot of £150,000 and so the 4% SWR says they can withdraw £6,000.

So at the end of the first year, at exactly the same time, both are retired and both have a pot of £150,000.  The 4% SWR says that A can withdraw £4,400 and B can withdraw £6,000.   How does that make sense? So why can't A also withdraw £6,000 and it still be ok (based on the underlying analysis done to make up the SWR)?

Of course, both candidates would be free to increae their withdrawal to £6,000. There is no inconsistency. One person would simply be following their 30 year SWR plan. The other would be embarking on a new 29 year SWR with a starting withdrawal of 4% = £6k.
When we discuss SWR we always note that some people virtually exhaust the pot while others end up with more than they started with. If the first candidate continued to withdraw £4400 they would end up with a large pot. If instead they chose to restart at £6k they would have a much smaller pot left at the end. In all cases the plan would succeed, if you trust SWR and if 4% is the rate. 

Linton

MK62 said:

In the end, in drawdown, variable expenditure (or income) may become unavoidable, unless your draw rate is so low that it can withstand almost any return/inflation scenario.......but then you'd be likely living well below your means unnecessarily.

Yes, if your pot is in a long term decline (say > 5 years) to a level where your ongoing drawdown is looking in doubt then a replan to respecify your needs could be essential.  However you should be able to avoid cutting expenditure during the normal once or twice a decade crash.

MK62

Linton said:

MK62 said:

In the end, in drawdown, variable expenditure (or income) may become unavoidable, unless your draw rate is so low that it can withstand almost any return/inflation scenario.......but then you'd be likely living well below your means unnecessarily.

Yes, if your pot is in a long term decline (say > 5 years) to a level where your ongoing drawdown is looking in doubt then a replan to respecify your needs could be essential.  However you should be able to avoid cutting expenditure during the normal once or twice a decade crash.

That's certainly the hope......and is really the main reason I use a form of cash buffer.......income stability, as far as is reasonably possible at least, is probably more important to me than squeezing the max out each year........as another member posted on here recently, I want to be able to book next year's holidays without worrying whether I'll be able to pay for them if my drawdown plan cuts next year's income too much.

OldScientist

Linton said:

OldScientist said:

Linton said:

OldScientist said:

NoMore said:

jim8888 said:

NoMore said:

Its a deceptively simple answer to a extremely difficult problem, unfortunately you can't guarantee its the right answer.

I'm also pretty sure 90% (outside this thread/forum) misunderstand it and think it means 4% (or whatever SWR%) of your remaining portfolio every year not the correct method which is 4% of the initial portfolio and then adjust that number each year for inflation such that your spending power each year remains the same. 

Thanks for that clarification. I'd be in the 90% and I thought I knew about this stuff !

As I said its a common misconception, but if you did the 4% of remaining each year, your withdrawals could vary wildly depending on gains/losses. The SWR avoids this by setting a initial amount and then adjusting it for inflation. The idea is like a yearly wage its predictable what you will get, with a 4% of remaining you have no idea year to year what you will be withdrawing.

The predictability (or otherwise) of income is a critical point. Withdrawal strategies can broadly be divided into three categories
1) Inflation adjusted (of which constant inflation adjusted, i.e., SWR is the best known). From an income point of view, the advantage is that the income is known, but the disadvantage is that how long the income will last for is not.
2) Percentage of portfolio (e.g., constant percentage, bogleheads VPW or ABW, 1/N, possibly natural yield, etc.). The advantage is that, mathematically, income will be delivered for a lifetime, but the disadvantage is that real income will vary from year to year and, potentially, become small.
3) Hybrid methods, and there are loads, combine elements of inflation linked and percentage of portfolio methods (e.g., Guyton Klinger, Vanguard Dynamic, Carlson's endowment, Bengen’s floor and ceiling, etc.). Income is less variable than in the percentage of portfolio case (although can still get small in poor retirements) and there is less chance of portfolio exhaustion than in the inflation adjusted case.

However, whether you care about variability or failure in drawdown income depends on what fraction it forms of your spending (whether essential or the total of essential and discretionary).

For example

For a couple with two state pensions (£23k), and a combined pension pot of £150k (and an inflation adjusted income of ~£4.5k). If their state pensions cover their essential spending and at least some of their discretionary, then the drawdown income is just ‘icing on the cake’ and pretty well any withdrawal strategy could be adopted because variability or failure can easily be accommodated. I suspect a number of the denizens on these boards fall into this category.

However, for a couple with two state pensions (£23k), a combined pension pot of £800k (inflation adjusted income ~£24k), an essential spend of £40k, and a discretionary spend of a further £10k, things are a bit tricker since a portfolio failure would leave them with insufficient income to support their essential spend and percentage of portfolio methods might leave them short in some years. Playing around with different hybrid approaches might provide a solution, but there is always the possibility of failure. However, purchasing sufficient RPI protected income annuity to provide most or all of the essential spend (i.e., up to an additional £17k costing around £400-£450k for a joint life – even if payout rates fall back to 3%, this would still ‘only’ cost £560k) and then withdrawing the remaining pot using whatever method desired. Of course, an alternative approach might be to revise what is considered essential spending and what discretionary.

There is a 4th strategy.  Plan on taking what you need, invest for long term growth with a high global diversification, and ensure you have sufficient slack to last n years with zero equity growth.  Choose "n" and "need" on the basis of what you can afford and are prepared to accept in the knowledge that there is no investment based strategy that will work in all conceivable circumstances.

In my view the academic strategies are fine to boost the authors professional ratings, book sales, and earnings from the lecture circuit./  To be fair they may be helpful in giving you the confidence to jump.  But I find it difficult to believe that any but a very small number of people will put any of them into practice over the long term.

Does anyone here who has retired actually use an academic strategy? If so which one?

IMV, defining 'what you can afford' is one element of the withdrawal strategies.

In answer to your question, yes
1) Floor provided by an inflation protected DB pension (which will be added to once in receipt of the SP)
2) Portfolio withdrawals using a modified version of VPW (so withdrawals vary from year to year).
3) Inflation linked ladder (and life insurance) to cover the period before my OH gets their SP in the event of my death.

I don't know whether 1) counts as an 'academic' strategy, but had I not had a DB pension, I would have built as sufficient flooring using an annuity instead (does buying an annuity count as an 'academic' strategy?).

I am solely referring to long term strategies intended to manage drawdown from volatile investments. If you can meet your needs without it that is fine but its not what I am discussing..

As a basic principle I would argue against any strategy that imposes variable expenditure over time depending on the then current economic circumstances.  So that would rule out VPW (Variable % withdrawal) unless one had a sufficiently large buffer to cover the difficult times. 

Just to be clear, are you arguing for constant inflation adjusted withdrawals (i.e., some form of SWR) then, since any other type would introduce variable real expenditure?

The 'buffer' can come from guaranteed income (whether SP, DB pension, RPI annuity, Edit: or inflation linked gilt ladder) - i.e., a 'floor and upside' approach.