Investigation at work when I was victim of ABH

Cactusjxck6

Undervalued said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Marcon said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Hi guys 

 I was a victim of ABH Assault and now my workplace have suspended me full pay while they “investigate”

I am in England - I was a victim of ABH by a drug dealer who has a previous arrest of ABH on a family member, 2 months ago and is currently on bail. I acted in self defence (I threw two punches to keep me safe)

I have reported to the police but I suspect the attacker has found my workplace and reported me with false allegations. (I have no criminal record ever and have a clear DBS) 

I have been employed here for 1 year 2 months and a completely clean record here too! Work have said they’ll investigate but until then I am suspended full pay - I have witnesses who corroborate my story with the police, and work, that the attacker was previously saying hes gonna “beef me when he sees me” and he’s gonna “punch me up” 

What shall I do? Should I resign to avoid any possible disciplinary hearings which will affect any future jobs?  

What reason for leaving would you give a future employer? If you are innocent and have witnesses who corroborate your story, why resign and (effectively) leave under a cloud, which might surface if a future employer asks for a reference. 

Hi Marcon,

I spoke to ACAS and they stated legally I am allowed to use self defence and they cannot refrain me from doing so HOWEVER if it brings the company into disrepute, I can be disciplined for this… 

as I haven’t worked here for 2 years, I can be dismissed and it cannot be brought forward to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal- I would rather resign than be dismissed? 

Unless you reach a formal settlement agreement with them they could (I am not saying they necessarily would) still hold a disciplinary hearing despite your resignation.

Suspension is a neutral act (in law) and if they have received allegations then they are doing the proper thing by fully investigating them. Given you have less than two years service they could simply have dismissed you and saved themselves the cost of your full pay whilst suspended. Given that they haven't and are doing this properly I would see that as a positive sign.

I would suggest you cooperate fully and calmly and factually put your side of the story.

What I’m anxious about is if they DO dismiss me, it’ll affect all my jobs in the future for, idk, bringing disrepute to the company? 

That’s why I’d rather leave on good terms with a good reference? 

Undervalued

Cactusjxck6 said:

Undervalued said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Marcon said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Hi guys 

 I was a victim of ABH Assault and now my workplace have suspended me full pay while they “investigate”

I am in England - I was a victim of ABH by a drug dealer who has a previous arrest of ABH on a family member, 2 months ago and is currently on bail. I acted in self defence (I threw two punches to keep me safe)

I have reported to the police but I suspect the attacker has found my workplace and reported me with false allegations. (I have no criminal record ever and have a clear DBS) 

I have been employed here for 1 year 2 months and a completely clean record here too! Work have said they’ll investigate but until then I am suspended full pay - I have witnesses who corroborate my story with the police, and work, that the attacker was previously saying hes gonna “beef me when he sees me” and he’s gonna “punch me up” 

What shall I do? Should I resign to avoid any possible disciplinary hearings which will affect any future jobs?  

What reason for leaving would you give a future employer? If you are innocent and have witnesses who corroborate your story, why resign and (effectively) leave under a cloud, which might surface if a future employer asks for a reference. 

Hi Marcon,

I spoke to ACAS and they stated legally I am allowed to use self defence and they cannot refrain me from doing so HOWEVER if it brings the company into disrepute, I can be disciplined for this… 

as I haven’t worked here for 2 years, I can be dismissed and it cannot be brought forward to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal- I would rather resign than be dismissed? 

Unless you reach a formal settlement agreement with them they could (I am not saying they necessarily would) still hold a disciplinary hearing despite your resignation.

Suspension is a neutral act (in law) and if they have received allegations then they are doing the proper thing by fully investigating them. Given you have less than two years service they could simply have dismissed you and saved themselves the cost of your full pay whilst suspended. Given that they haven't and are doing this properly I would see that as a positive sign.

I would suggest you cooperate fully and calmly and factually put your side of the story.

What I’m anxious about is if they DO dismiss me, it’ll affect all my jobs in the future for, idk, bringing disrepute to the company? 

That’s why I’d rather leave on good terms with a good reference? 

As I said, the only way to guarantee that is by reaching a formal agreement with your employer, assuming they will agree. 

However, even then, remember in giving a reference an employer owes an equal duty to both the leaving employee and the prospective employer to be honest and not to deliberately mislead (an yes you can mislead without straying from the truth)!

Remember too, even with an agreement you cannot police the grapevine or informal conversations in the pub etc.

These days quite a lot of employers have a policy of only giving "bare bones" references that do little more than confirm the dates of employment. However this varies in different fields of work and may not be the case for your field?

Cactusjxck6

Undervalued said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Undervalued said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Marcon said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Hi guys 

 I was a victim of ABH Assault and now my workplace have suspended me full pay while they “investigate”

I am in England - I was a victim of ABH by a drug dealer who has a previous arrest of ABH on a family member, 2 months ago and is currently on bail. I acted in self defence (I threw two punches to keep me safe)

I have reported to the police but I suspect the attacker has found my workplace and reported me with false allegations. (I have no criminal record ever and have a clear DBS) 

I have been employed here for 1 year 2 months and a completely clean record here too! Work have said they’ll investigate but until then I am suspended full pay - I have witnesses who corroborate my story with the police, and work, that the attacker was previously saying hes gonna “beef me when he sees me” and he’s gonna “punch me up” 

What shall I do? Should I resign to avoid any possible disciplinary hearings which will affect any future jobs?  

What reason for leaving would you give a future employer? If you are innocent and have witnesses who corroborate your story, why resign and (effectively) leave under a cloud, which might surface if a future employer asks for a reference. 

Hi Marcon,

I spoke to ACAS and they stated legally I am allowed to use self defence and they cannot refrain me from doing so HOWEVER if it brings the company into disrepute, I can be disciplined for this… 

as I haven’t worked here for 2 years, I can be dismissed and it cannot be brought forward to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal- I would rather resign than be dismissed? 

Unless you reach a formal settlement agreement with them they could (I am not saying they necessarily would) still hold a disciplinary hearing despite your resignation.

Suspension is a neutral act (in law) and if they have received allegations then they are doing the proper thing by fully investigating them. Given you have less than two years service they could simply have dismissed you and saved themselves the cost of your full pay whilst suspended. Given that they haven't and are doing this properly I would see that as a positive sign.

I would suggest you cooperate fully and calmly and factually put your side of the story.

What I’m anxious about is if they DO dismiss me, it’ll affect all my jobs in the future for, idk, bringing disrepute to the company? 

That’s why I’d rather leave on good terms with a good reference? 

As I said, the only way to guarantee that is by reaching a formal agreement with your employer, assuming they will agree. 

However, even then, remember in giving a reference an employer owes an equal duty to both the leaving employee and the prospective employer to be honest and not to deliberately mislead (an yes you can mislead without straying from the truth)!

Remember too, even with an agreement you cannot police the grapevine or informal conversations in the pub etc.

These days quite a lot of employers have a policy of only giving "bare bones" references that do little more than confirm the dates of employment. However this varies in different fields of work and may not be the case for your field?

Ah yes, that is very true! 

In my field they do give the bare bones references, I’m fairly certain? Maybe something I will check? 

Do you think it’s worth me trying to reach an agreement IF they conclude the investigation with me going to a disciplinary hearing; or should I attend the disciplinary hearing and maybe be dismissed, and forever be not allowed to have these employers on my reference? 

(In all fairness I am a VERY good employee and this is my first proper job in this field so I would love to have this employer as a reference)

Jude57

Cactusjxck6 said:

Jude57 said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

elsien said:

They could if they chose to do so but most don’t because they don’t want people only paying when they’re in trouble.
But I agree with Savvy Sue once you’re through this join a union for whatever job you have. In your line of work allegations  can be a bit of an occupational hazard, and although some union reps are as much use as a chocolate teapot, I did always find it reassuring having the power of a large organisation behind me.

By the way, did you see my extra edit to my earlier post about the disciplinary procedure?

I’ll have a call around Monday morning and see if anyone can help - I use this job to support my mum so I really am anxious 

I appreciate the input guys, it really is useful! I just gave it a read now and you’re right! They did say it’s not an indicator of guilt but just so they can investigate fully or thereabouts 

legally, am I allowed to use self defence to protect myself regardless of what company policy states? Ie. they may have a no violence policy but legally I am allowed to use proportionate force to keep myself safe? (Which I did)

It doesn't matter what policy your employer may have in this case because the incident did not happen at work nor on company premises and in any event, common law in England is clear that a person is allowed to use 'reasonable force' to defend themselves or others from attack. That defence must be proportionate and used only up to the point the attacker is subdued or the person being attacked can make their escape. What is 'reasonable' naturally depends on the circumstances so, for example, if someone slaps you on the arm, it would not be reasonable to pull out a weapon of any kind and use it to inflict ABH or GBH but if someone came at you with a knife, you'd be entitled to use, say, a narwhal's tusk to hold them off (London Bridge attacks). From what you describe, you were attacked and used two punches to subdue your attacker, thus allowing you to leave the property. There's more in this article which might be helpful:

https://www.makwanas.co.uk/reasonable-force-in-self-defence/

Bear in mind, though, that your employer doesn't need to have the level of proof that a criminal case would require in order to dismiss you, no matter how long you've been employed. They only need to have a reasonable belief (a layman's belief) that you had committed an act that a reasonable employer would consider misconduct warranting dismissal. It's my opinion, and please don't take it as legal advice, that based on what you've said, your actions of punching your attacker twice to subdue him sufficiently to enable you to get away from the property were probably reasonable. Your immediate report to Police supports this. If the witnesses have given statements to Police supporting your version of events and there are to be no criminal charges made against you, it's hard to see how a reasonable employer could view your actions as misconduct worthy of dismissal. That said, as you're clearly aware, with just under the required two years' service, they could lawfully dismiss you anyway. Your lack of criminal record, your good record with your present employer and, hopefully, copies of witness statements and the Police report will be enough to convince your employer that your actions were reasonable in the circumstances.

Hi Jude,

I am STILL waiting for an officer to take my witness statement and the witnesss details (phone call from the attacker saying “he will stab me, he’s going to punch me up”) 

it’s been a week and frustrating waiting for the officer in charge to contact me to take all this evidence 

I appreciate the input!  

Yes, it must be frustrating for you. I'd give it another 7 days and if no-one from the Police has been in touch, contact the Inspector for your area, details of whom should be on your Police force's website, probably under 'Neighbourhood Policing' or a similar name. Explain that, while you understand that this may be a minor matter (in terms of Policing priorities) you are currently suspended from work because of the incident and the outcome of the Police investigation could be crucial to your employer's disciplinary process and could well affect the outcome. If you're unable to speak to the Inspector, see if there's a Sergeant on your Neighbourhood Policing team you can speak to. If still no joy after, say, 10 days, I'd be looking on the website for the Complaints process. This is, after all, a violent, unprovoked (I'm trusting that it WAS unprovoked) assault on you by someone with previous form and the impact it's having on your life and your career is potentially disastrous.

You refer to ABH but give no details, as you are perfectly entitled not to do. However, ABH is a specific criminal offence and unless your injuries meet the serious end of the criteria, it's quite possible that Police will look at the incident as an altercation between equal combatants where you came off worst (if you did) and that no further Police action is appropriate. The bar for what constitutes ABH is actually quite low, from a minor scrape or graze upwards to much more severe injury. If you sought medical treatment for your injury you should obtain documentation of that to present to your employers as further proof that your own actions in defending yourself were reasonable and proportionate in the circumstances

Cactusjxck6

Jude57 said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

Jude57 said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

elsien said:

They could if they chose to do so but most don’t because they don’t want people only paying when they’re in trouble.
But I agree with Savvy Sue once you’re through this join a union for whatever job you have. In your line of work allegations  can be a bit of an occupational hazard, and although some union reps are as much use as a chocolate teapot, I did always find it reassuring having the power of a large organisation behind me.

By the way, did you see my extra edit to my earlier post about the disciplinary procedure?

I’ll have a call around Monday morning and see if anyone can help - I use this job to support my mum so I really am anxious 

I appreciate the input guys, it really is useful! I just gave it a read now and you’re right! They did say it’s not an indicator of guilt but just so they can investigate fully or thereabouts 

legally, am I allowed to use self defence to protect myself regardless of what company policy states? Ie. they may have a no violence policy but legally I am allowed to use proportionate force to keep myself safe? (Which I did)

It doesn't matter what policy your employer may have in this case because the incident did not happen at work nor on company premises and in any event, common law in England is clear that a person is allowed to use 'reasonable force' to defend themselves or others from attack. That defence must be proportionate and used only up to the point the attacker is subdued or the person being attacked can make their escape. What is 'reasonable' naturally depends on the circumstances so, for example, if someone slaps you on the arm, it would not be reasonable to pull out a weapon of any kind and use it to inflict ABH or GBH but if someone came at you with a knife, you'd be entitled to use, say, a narwhal's tusk to hold them off (London Bridge attacks). From what you describe, you were attacked and used two punches to subdue your attacker, thus allowing you to leave the property. There's more in this article which might be helpful:

https://www.makwanas.co.uk/reasonable-force-in-self-defence/

Bear in mind, though, that your employer doesn't need to have the level of proof that a criminal case would require in order to dismiss you, no matter how long you've been employed. They only need to have a reasonable belief (a layman's belief) that you had committed an act that a reasonable employer would consider misconduct warranting dismissal. It's my opinion, and please don't take it as legal advice, that based on what you've said, your actions of punching your attacker twice to subdue him sufficiently to enable you to get away from the property were probably reasonable. Your immediate report to Police supports this. If the witnesses have given statements to Police supporting your version of events and there are to be no criminal charges made against you, it's hard to see how a reasonable employer could view your actions as misconduct worthy of dismissal. That said, as you're clearly aware, with just under the required two years' service, they could lawfully dismiss you anyway. Your lack of criminal record, your good record with your present employer and, hopefully, copies of witness statements and the Police report will be enough to convince your employer that your actions were reasonable in the circumstances.

Hi Jude,

I am STILL waiting for an officer to take my witness statement and the witnesss details (phone call from the attacker saying “he will stab me, he’s going to punch me up”) 

it’s been a week and frustrating waiting for the officer in charge to contact me to take all this evidence 

I appreciate the input!  

Yes, it must be frustrating for you. I'd give it another 7 days and if no-one from the Police has been in touch, contact the Inspector for your area, details of whom should be on your Police force's website, probably under 'Neighbourhood Policing' or a similar name. Explain that, while you understand that this may be a minor matter (in terms of Policing priorities) you are currently suspended from work because of the incident and the outcome of the Police investigation could be crucial to your employer's disciplinary process and could well affect the outcome. If you're unable to speak to the Inspector, see if there's a Sergeant on your Neighbourhood Policing team you can speak to. If still no joy after, say, 10 days, I'd be looking on the website for the Complaints process. This is, after all, a violent, unprovoked (I'm trusting that it WAS unprovoked) assault on you by someone with previous form and the impact it's having on your life and your career is potentially disastrous.

You refer to ABH but give no details, as you are perfectly entitled not to do. However, ABH is a specific criminal offence and unless your injuries meet the serious end of the criteria, it's quite possible that Police will look at the incident as an altercation between equal combatants where you came off worst (if you did) and that no further Police action is appropriate. The bar for what constitutes ABH is actually quite low, from a minor scrape or graze upwards to much more severe injury. If you sought medical treatment for your injury you should obtain documentation of that to present to your employers as further proof that your own actions in defending yourself were reasonable and proportionate in the circumstances

Thanks for the advice, I honestly do appreciate it! 

It was unprovoked, I think the other party was smoking weed and quite paranoid so I want to communicate that to the officer as well as previous comments he made a few hours prior about hurting me 

it was initially a few bruises but after getting checked out by the doctor I suffered a knee fracture 

Savvy_Sue

Cactusjxck6 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

Cactusjxck6 said:

elsien said:

I think at the moment it’s just going to be a waiting game. Make sure you have a copy of your organisations disciplinary policy. They should have given you a contact name for any questions while you are suspended.
Are you in a union?

Yeah I agree, anxious waiting game though  

I am not part of any union and cannot have a union rep for any existing issues so unfortunately I’m out of luck for that 

No, but join now, it does worry me the number of people working with vulnerable groups who aren't. I had a colleague reported by another organisation based on what one of our mutual clients had said: suspended immediately, don't talk to anyone at work. They were very glad to have the union in their corner! 

I never thought I would be in this position!  

can a union represent me even with an ongoing case? I have heard mixed things regarding this, some people say they will as they judge it case by case

NONE of us ever think we will be in this position! 

As elsien says, they may agree to represent you, but they certainly don't have to. The point is, working with vulnerable people, you never know what may happen, so joining now makes you ready for 'next time'. Of course we all hope there will never BE a next time, but it happens. And even if they don't agree to represent you, they will almost certainly have information on their website which will help you get through any disciplinary process, if there is any.