PCN paid for by leasing company

Gr1pr

travellover123 said:

sorry what does "offer the major keying error option as payment" mean? Will I still have to pay something?
is what I sent above good enough to appeal with?

Full payment wasn't made as it was free parking, if I registered my registration on their systems which is what I did but I just got the last two digits the wrong way around

There is an option to pay a reduced charge for a major keying error, that is what happened, doesn't matter if its a free car park or payment required car park, that isn't the issue here, the alleged breach of the parking contract, by conduct, caused the driver to be potentially liable for the breach charge on the sign and on the PCNs. The G24 charge is due to the breach, free or not. A mistake is a breach, a breach of contract, by conduct 

So G24 may offer the lower figure to settle the matter 

Putting in those details the wrong way round is what caused the breach 

Hire and lease vehicles bring several complications with them, when someone signs up, its about the whole contract, not just the monthly payments, contracts all have responsibilities on those entering into them. The BVRLA aspect is another topic on top of several others

Private parking is also a minefield, with 2 trade bodies, 2 different appeal systems, if you engage with them 

POFA 2012 is yet another topic in the equation. ( or not. )

Court is another topic, if G24 were to sue via MCOL, via the CNBC in Northampton 

Its a lot to get your head around, but we didn't choose it, it's complicated, not simple, hence why you should study the newbies sticky thread, In announcements, that tends to be the place to look for templates 

The IPC website is the place to download the code of practice

POFA 2012 can be found using Google search or duck duck go 

You won't learn this topic in a day, Rome wasn't built in a day either, take it in small chunks, just do what we said and learn gradually, depending on what comes back 

So concentrate on doing what you can, leaving all the explanations, research and what ifs for later on 

Fruitcake

travellover123 said:

Fruitcake said:

There is every point in appealing, especially if you state that the hirer/lessee cannot be held liable for the charge because the hirer has not received a PoFA 2012 compliant NTK. If it gets to court then you need to show the judge that you tried to narrow the issues by attempting to appeal. It isn't your fault that the new combined IPC/BPA CoP prevents a (day to day) keeper from appealing.

Thank you for your reply.
Is there a template somewhere about this that I could copy? 

Your beef is currently with the hire company because either they breached the hire contract Ts and Cs by paying/attempting to pay the charge, or these Ts and Cs include an unfair contract term that removes your right to appeal, and your right to ADR.

You should complain to the hire company about this breach of BVRLA memorandum of understanding, and the breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 because you have been denied your right to appeal and use ADR. If the hire company paid the charge instead even though they could not be held liable if they followed the BVRLA guidelines, and the requirements of the PoFA that would have absolved them of all liability.
By paying the charge, they have admitted liability by conduct. If they try to take the payment from you, then put it into dispute with the hire company and your financial provider.

Shall I email their fines and penalties email about this? Again, is there a template for this somewhere?

The direct debit is due to come out of my account in a few weeks, shall I cancel the direct debit? I'm worried that will cause problems as it would also cancel my direct debit for the monthly rental 

There are three template letters written by edna basher that you will find in the sticky Announcement for NEWBIES. One of them is for fleet managers so the one you want is one of the other two.
Post your draft here for checking before you submit it.

There are no templates for complaints, but there is a Successful Complaints thread on the forum. You may find something suitable there, but really, all complaints should be bespoke, and I have already written the main points to cover. Read the hire agreement thoroughly and see what it says about parking charge notices. Not fines, not penalties, parking charge notices from private parking companies. If those three words are not present, then there is no contractual right for the hire company to pay and charge you for the privilege. Note that they can charge you for transferring liability if those words are there.
If those three words are there, and the contract allows the hire company to pay the charge and charge you, but denies you the right to appeal?ADR by doing so, then it is an unfair contract term and a breach of the CRA 2015.
Also complain about the breach of the BVRLA guidelines that specifically tells its members not to pay these charges, but to pass the hirer's details to the PPC.

Again, post your draft here first, but your priority is for the hirer to fire off an appeal asap.

Do not under any circumstances use use words like, I drove or I parked. The hire company has no idea who was driving, and neither does the PPC, so don't do their job for them.

travellover123

@Fruitcake thank you so much for your detailed response! 

Here is my draft:

Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by G24 Limited as a Notice to Hirer. I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why Highview’s Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

I would also like to inform you that the driver did enter the registration number of the car in the parking system for shopname to quality for their free parking however, it was entered incorrectly (AA11ACB) instead of (AA11ABC). However, I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .

Given that Highview has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.

Yours faithfully,
Travellover123

Please let me know if the above will suffice.

I'll get my draft ready for the leasing company after i've sent off this appeal. 

I think I should be able to raise a complaint after reading the T&Cs. 

The following paragraphs are the only time they've mentioned the word "Parking".

- We may share your information with third parties who contact us regarding the use of your vehicle including in connection with accidents, offences, fines including foreign fines, penalties, charges including congestion charges and private parking charges, and tolls. 

- For each demand that we receive in respect of any fees, fines, (including all speeding, parking and any traffic congestion charge fines) or other sums or liabilities arising from your possession or use of the Vehicle, we will charge you an administration fee of £12. If we pay any
such sum if you have not paid it, you will reimburse us that amount, and we will charge you a further fee of £30 for each charge that we pay. 

- If arising from your possession or use of the Vehicle any fees, fines (including all speeding, parking and any traffic congestion charge fines) or other sums or liabilities are referred or sent to us, we may charge you an administration fee as set out on page 2 for each such referral. We may (but shall not be obliged to) pay any such sum if you have not paid it. If we do so you agree to reimburse the amount we pay and we will charge you a further fee as set out on page 2 for each charge that we pay. 

Thanks again for all your help!

travellover123

Also, just want to double check, the PCN says: "On XX XXXX 2024 you were the registered keeper of vehicle..."
Am I still okay to use the above to appeal? 

Gr1pr

Its G24, not Highview 

G24 follow the IPC code of practice , the IPC use the IAS, not Popla 

You haven't received an NtH, you are the keeper, the day to day keeper, the lessee, appealing as a lessee Hirer, the lease company are probably the Registered Keeper , they passed on the NTK PCN to you to appeal as lessee 

travellover123

oh yes sorry! Forgot to replace Highview with G24 everywhere.

Ahh okay I see, I completely forgot they sent me a letter and said I needed that when appealing and to attach it to the appeal.

The letter says:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Please be advised that we give authorisation for our customer to dispute the above mentioned Penalty Charge Notice.
We are the registered keeper of the vehicle, which is on long term lease to our customer -

Name 
Address

Please make any refund cheque payable to leasing company ltd, noting the reference number and registration number on all correspondence.

I trust that you will now look at the customer's appeal.

If you require further information then please call us on: 123456789 or email abc@leasingcompany.co.uk

Yours faithfully,
Fines & Penalities Department

Shall I attach this email?

Many thanks for all your help

Gr1pr

You can tell from that letter that they think its a penalty, G24 don't issue Penalties, so another point to bring up with the Fines and Penalties Department, because it's a Parking Charge Notice, not a fine and not a penalty either 

You will come to realise that words matter, in legal matters and in contract law , the devil is in the detail, every word should be studied 

Yes you can attach it, but you have a lot more to do than just changing Highview to G24, read my reply again 

travellover123

Apolgoies, I missed the comment about IPC. 

You haven't received an NtH, you are the keeper, the day to day keeper, the lessee, appealing as a lessee Hirer, the lease company are probably the Registered Keeper , they passed on the NTK PCN to you to appeal as lessee 

Do i need to change the wording in my appeal then? 

Will the following suffice?

Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to the registered keeper by G24 Limited. I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why G24’s Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

I would also like to inform you that the driver did enter the registration number of the car in the parking system for shopname to quality for their free parking however, it was entered incorrectly (AA11ACB) instead of (AA11ABC). Nevertheless, I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .

Given that G24 has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), their contact details and a unique IAS appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to IAS.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.

Yours faithfully,

Many thanks again!

Gr1pr

Qualify, not quality 

IPC code of practice, not BPA 

travellover123

ah *face palm* apologies for all my mistakes!

Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by G24 Limited as a Notice to Hirer. I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why G24’s Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

I would also like to inform you that the driver did enter the registration number of the car in the parking system for shopname to qualify for their free parking however, it was entered incorrectly (AA11ACB) instead of (AA11ABC). Nevertheless, I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .

Given that G24 has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), their contact details and a unique IAS appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to IAS.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the IPC Code of Practice.

Yours faithfully,