council bill maths breakdown overcharging. can it be claimed back under Direct Debit Indemnit

Sledger

i have been paying my council tax by monthly direct debits for 10 years and has 5 element percentage annual increases of Police/Fire/ Council/Adult social care and Parish council  and took the overall annual increase at face value. However a basic visual check of the 5 element % increases  from the previous year clearly is way in error compared to the total overall %increase Stated on the bill  
The Council being the bulk of one bill about  74% was claimed increased by 1%
The police 14 % increased by 2% .
The Fire 5% increased by 2%
Adult SC 3.7% increased by 3%
Parish Council  2.7% increased by 9.4% 

So  by visual inspection alone 93% of the bill is way under 3% due to the Council 74% element  being  a mere 1% but  the overall % increase over last year applied was 3.7%.

 I did a  quick calculation and even the ! decimal point percentage increase was incorrect and one year the Adult SC item had increased annually from £76 to £124 claimed as a 3% increase which was nonsense as it had increased  by a staggering 62.8%.

I raised this as a complaint in March and asked for the audited accounts and it came back " COMPLAINT NOT UPHELD" and now asked for the audited accounts under FOI but silence.

I applied to my bank for a Direct Debit Indemnity  for all 10 years as this billing error  anomaly applies every year but they only refunded April 2024 5 weeks ago. I asked for May and all payments and got a call stating they cannot refund under DDI as  the final figure stated on the bill was the actual amount debited so DDI does not apply. I have requested that in writing as cannot find anything on DDI supporting that so any input welcomed.






  

born_again

The Guarantee

• The Guarantee is offered by all banks and building societies that accept instructions to pay Direct Debits

• If there are any changes to the amount, date or frequency of your Direct Debit the organisation will notify you (normally 10 working days) in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. If you request the organisation to collect a payment, confirmation of the amount and date will be given to you at the time of the request

• If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society

• • If you receive a refund you are not entitled to, you must pay it back when the organisation asks you to

• You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by simply contacting your bank or building society. Written confirmation may be required. Please also notify the organisation.

https://www.directdebit.co.uk/direct-debit-guarantee/


So if you get a statement with how much they are going to take & when, then there is NO DDI...

You recourse is via Council for their maths.
So I would now expect you get a non payment marker on your credit history as the amount will have been as you were advised in council tax billing statement.
They will also be chasing for the amount to be repaid...

Wonka_2

This is a common thing where the maths doesn’t math but it allows councils to show headline numbers. I have an explanation somewhere from a previous complaint - I’ll try and dig it out. 

And no, you’re not going to get a refund

ETA whilst I can’t find the response to my complaint apparently they’re allowed to show the ‘Adult Care’ element as a % increase of the total bill, not as a % increase of that element. 

In 30+ years of working with %increases in pricing etc I’ve never seen a company allowed to advertise/calculate in this way yet Councils are allowed to  

Sledger

Thanks for that born again.
They did not cancel the April council DD payment on my statement when they made the DD  payment but maybe that will be pending so unclear and need to monitor statements.

Not only did I not spot the obvious overall % maths error I also never monitored my direct debits which are all over the place and just started logging them  so will be pursuing that. So if I get a annual rate bill with monthly debits there is no amount stated and looks like can they deduct whatever they want on a direct debit???

Ill wait for their letter as their tel call quote "they cannot refund under DDI as  the final figure stated on the bill was the actual amount debited so DDI does not apply" 

2015

1 Oct              £424.48

2 Nov             £421

1  Dec            £500.61  

2016 

4 Jan              £502

1 Feb             £502

1 March        £502 

1 April          £296.82

3 May           £296

1 Jun             £157.06

1 Aug            £93.53

1 Sep             £91

3 Oct             £93

1 Nov            £215.84

1 Dec             £212

2017

3 Jan              £212

1 Feb              £212

1 March        £705.47     Yearly 2491.74 actual Bill states

3 April           £201.93

2 May            £205

1 Jun              £205

3 Jul               £205

1 Aug             £205

1 Sept            £205

2 Oct              £205

1 Nov             £25.27

1 Dec              £26

2018

2 Jan               £26 

   

Sledger

here are the 2017 and 2018 bills being a typical example between the years to verify where I note the format of some bills differ and don't give the monthly debit drawdown . That 2018 ASC claimed as 3% equating to £78.77 is actually 62.8% to get the £124.57 figure is totally false and misleading as had it stated the correct figure of 62.8% it would have raised a red flag (Images removed by Forum Team)

Sledger

Wonka thanks for that . Did you escalate yours to the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman (the Ombudsman) to review your complaint. Most of the main maths error is the  ASC but the percentage increases on many of the key services  over the years are not accurate to 1 decimal place an await their response which is way overdue.

harpee

The way the asc is shown on the demand notice (bill) is prescribed in law  by central government. They have to show it as two separate lines. Most local authorities have a webpage explaining the way the percentage changes are calculated because it's not at all intuitive.

The asc precept is a ring-fenced portion of the overall tax for the local authority that can only be spent on asc. But instead of showing you the total increase for the council on one line they split it across two lines so you can see the asc amount. The total CT for the council in 2017 was
1525.95 +76.48 = 1602.53.
1602.53*3% = 48.07
76.48+48.07= 124.55 = asc precept for 2018

My numbers are slightly out in the pennies because their billing software will round it differently. The percentages also get rounded to whole figures on the bill when they are probably not - the total increase for the local authority will always be a hair less than 5% as they can't increase by 5% or more without a referendum. 

lincroft1710

you should redact your name and address

Sledger

Thanks and interesting harpee  and edited out Lincroft and missed that 

Attached is my 2021 rate bill which 
a).Shows a annual charge of 5.4%  which is over the 5% threshold
b).The RBWM  element for 2020  was £1636.58 increased by £35.74 so (1672.32-1636.58)/1636.58=2.183% not 2% claimed. 
c). ASC for 2020 was£159.10 increased by  £53.87  so  (212.97-159.1 159.1 )=33.85% but bill wording implies its increased by 14.2%  from precious year.

Note the 6.9% and 14.2% are to 1 decimal place .If a bank stated they were paying 2.183 % interest but only paid 2% they would be taken to task 

harpee

Hello,

The limit on the % increase only applies to the precept attributable to the local authority (council), not the other amounts which make up your bill which are collected via the council tax and go to the other authorities listed eg police, fire, parish council. Therefore the total bill increase can be higher than 5%. I assume Wraysbury is a town or parish council? They have increased their charge by 14.2%

You need to add together the rbwm and asc lines for last year and this year and work out the total increase. You will then see that the  2 percentages shown add up to the increase of the previous years total - the total from last year has increased by 4.99%. 

 2% is added to the rbwm amount and 3% to the asc amount. The asc amount is just part of the total attributable to rbwm. The confusion arises because the council is required to list  the asc part separately. But really it is part of the tax levied by rbwm. 

 Your council rbwm have a guide explaining this that you can find and download here: 
https://www.rbwm.gov.uk/home/council-tax-and-benefits/council-tax