NHS pension & ill health retirement.

gwynlas

As previously mentionned it is notoriously difficult to get ill health retirement and I would be amazed if it was even considered given your age at the time and the nature of your diagnosis. However I agree you should pursue this now to receive benefits from 55 

GrubbyGirl_2

becky004 said:

Purplelady65 said:

I’m sorry to hear about your situation. Were Occupational Health not involved in your case at all? Do you have copies of any paperwork from that time e.g. copies of occupational health reports, letters from your employer e.t.c. As you were only 39 years old at the time you left your NHS employment I suspect that your age would have gone against you in terms of any ill health retirement application as it would have been difficult to evidence that you were so unwell that you were permanently incapable of working in your role. I would have expected your union rep, your manager or occupational health to have suggested at the time to apply for ill health retirement if they felt that was the most appropriate route for you even if you’ve nothing in writing t confirm this. 

I was not seen by Occupational Health at all during the 16 months I was off work, it was initially my GP, then psychiatrist & CPN. I have the final letter from the meeting I had with them here somewhere, ill health retirement was never mentioned by anyone at any point. If someone had even suggested that if I remained too unwell to work a year or two down the line, then I might want to look into ill health retirement and that I would lose all my enhancements if I didn't apply within five years, then I would have applied within that time frame.

The problem is you don't know what you don't know!  It could be that ill health retirement was discussed internally but was not discussed with you because you would not have qualified in their view.  Whilst your medical records may have been deleted your HR records won't have been and neither would any communication between HR and your line manager at the time.  As I said before I really think you need to be a subject access request and ask for any information they hold about you (not just relating to your sickness so nothing is missed).  And do the same from your union.  I also think you should get your medical records from your mental health provider as they may have been asked for their view.

You are relying on a very limited amount of information you hold from a meeting you attended when you were not well and not functioning brilliantly at the time.

I do fear however that, as others have said, it is a high bar to achieve and at 39 at the time it would be exceptional for a mental health problem be deemed to be permanent especially so far away for normal retirement age.  

Marcon

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

I do fear however that, as others have said, it is a high bar to achieve and at 39 at the time it would be exceptional for a mental health problem be deemed to be permanent especially so far away for normal retirement age.  

I think this is the real crux of the matter.

OP - it's worth exploring what your GP and any consultants you saw via your GP have on record. Few doctors I've come across have ever been keen to write off someone at a very young age. I suspect any reports are likely to be qualified with phrases such as '...hopefully she will respond to treatment....' or '...new medication may prove beneficial' (comments I make not from a medical standpoint, but from reports I've seen over the years where members of a scheme have applied for ill health retirement).

Any such observation would not be supportive of awarding an ill health pension - BUT the issue should at least have been raised with you/flagged as something which you could revisit if your health did not improve.

Having said that, it's hard to know (in the absence of any relevant facts, never mind all of them!) how things would pan out if the Pensions Ombudsman did agree to look at your case. Normally there is a three-year time bar which runs from the point where a member knew, or should have know, about the problem which has given rise to the complaint. If your mental health has continued to be a source of concern, I would hope the Ombudsman would use their discretion to investigate.

MarzipanCrumble

Asking for your personal data:  
Check out the weblink for your Trust and find any mention of Data protection or Freedom of Information.  There should be a Data Protection 'Department' with a contact link.  That is where you go to ask about what data the Trust may hold on you (and any other organisation for that matter).  

Be specific as you can about dates and what you want. And succinct if possible.  It may be that the data held has been destroyed - if they tell you this ask for reference to the policy that said that it would be destroyed.

The Information Commissioner's Office will give guidance on asking for data held about you - might be worthwhile reading first
ico.org.uk

Marcon

MarzipanCrumble said:

The Information Commissioner's Office will give guidance on asking for data held about you - might be worthwhile reading first
ico.org.uk

Good idea, but probably helpful to give the relevant link, especially for someone who may not be in a great frame of mind: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/getting-copies-of-your-information-subject-access-request/how-to-make-a-subject-access-request/

becky004

Marcon said:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

I do fear however that, as others have said, it is a high bar to achieve and at 39 at the time it would be exceptional for a mental health problem be deemed to be permanent especially so far away for normal retirement age.  

I think this is the real crux of the matter.

OP - it's worth exploring what your GP and any consultants you saw via your GP have on record. Few doctors I've come across have ever been keen to write off someone at a very young age. I suspect any reports are likely to be qualified with phrases such as '...hopefully she will respond to treatment....' or '...new medication may prove beneficial' (comments I make not from a medical standpoint, but from reports I've seen over the years where members of a scheme have applied for ill health retirement).

Any such observation would not be supportive of awarding an ill health pension - BUT the issue should at least have been raised with you/flagged as something which you could revisit if your health did not improve.

Having said that, it's hard to know (in the absence of any relevant facts, never mind all of them!) how things would pan out if the Pensions Ombudsman did agree to look at your case. Normally there is a three-year time bar which runs from the point where a member knew, or should have know, about the problem which has given rise to the complaint. If your mental health has continued to be a source of concern, I would hope the Ombudsman would use their discretion to investigate.

Thank you all for the advice and help, from everyone that has replied, it is very much appreciated, and I have contacted the organisation, using the link you provided Marcon. I do very much get what is being said about my age at the time, and I had only been diagnosed a month before leaving, despite being unwell for 16 months at that point. I get that there was a possibility of significant improvement with treatment, but given how unpredictable mental health issues are, there was also the possibility of limited or no improvement (I would put myself under limited improvement, rarely leave my home as I am safe here, and have to have someone with me with me when I do). So yes it may not have been appropriate at that meeting to suggest I apply for ill health retirement, but I feel someone should have mentioned that if I remained too unwell to work, it was something I could consider at a later date, but that it would need to be done within 5 years or I would lose all my enhancements.

From diagnosis in 2010 to 2014, there was significant involvement with mental health services (psychiatrist, psychologist for CBT as my thoughts and behaviours were not rational, and CPN), so that will all be on record. Since then it has been medication adjustments via GP. Have had regular assessments with DWP for benefit purposes (not pension related but are notoriously difficult assessments), was in support group for ESA until I lost my home and had to switch to UC to claim housing costs, am now in LCWRA, DLA awarded nothing originally, at tribunal was awarded maximum, and following further applications where they do at home assessments, I receive enhanced rates for both elements of PIP (for mental health, not physical issues)

The 3 year time bar with the Pensions Ombudsman, I honestly knew nothing until this month, I reached 55 in April, so decided to look into my pension as I knew (or thought I knew), that I could apply from aged 55, and I have been struggling for many years, and was eventually told I am now a deferred member so entitled to no enhancements, I should have asked my employer in 2010, and need to take it up with them.

Had I had the option between 2010 and 2015, I wouldn't be well off, but I would still have my home, and be financially a little more better off than I am now and not reliant on benefits.

becky004

Marcon said:

becky004 said:

Sorry for the long post, but am at a total loss, and am unsure where to seek help from.

I was a midwifery sister, in March of 2009 I became very unwell and went on sick leave (I was 39yrs old, I had worked in the NHS and paid into my pension since April 1991). In May of 2010 I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder & it's manifestations, severe anxiety & severe social anxiety. In June of 2010, I along with my Unison representative attended a meeting with my Midwifery manager and a member of HR, I had been off sick for 16 months & they wanted to discuss my possible return. My representative spoke on my behalf as I was unable to, it was very evident from my behaviour that I was in no position to return. They said they wished to retain me and offered me a further 12 months on unpaid sick leave, my representative explained I did not see a point where I would be able to return (which was true, I had been ill for 16 months and was deteriorating, not improving). So my employment was terminated, at no point was the possibility of ill health retirement mentioned by my Unision representative or my employer, and given my age and mental state it did not enter my head.

Since then I have survived on benefits, I have never been in any other form of employment as I am not well enough. I knew I was able to apply for my pension when I reached 55. I lost my home in 2021 as once my children left education, my benefits more than halved and I could no longer pay my mortgage, so I now live in social housing. I turned 55 last month, so have looked into claiming my pension on health grounds. 

I have been in contact with NHSBSA multiple times via email, I ask direct questions they won't answer, they just send link after link to documents I genuinely can't wrap my head around. I have asked twice if I could possibly speak to someone, again no and links to further documents.

The only question they have answered is, when I asked why I wasn't informed I was entitled to apply for ill health retirement in June of 2010, they told me I should have asked my employer at the time. At the time I couldn't have asked what day of the week it was, nor was I aware that at such a young age it was a possibility for me.

So, had I applied for ill health retirement in 2010 when I had to finish, it appears I would have been on Tier 2, so as I am in the 1995 section I would have been entitled to my pension, plus 2/3 enhancements, which means I wouldn't have lost my home as I would have had enough to pay my mortgage and live. However because I have not been employed within the NHS within the last 5 years, I am considered a deferred member, so while I can apply for ill health retirement, I will receive no enhancements, which is a loss of around £6000 a year.

I do not feel this is fair, as had I been made aware of it in 2010, I would have applied for it straight away, instead of struggling and losing my home. Just wondering if anyone has been through similar, or has any advice on my next step, as I do want to challenge it, but don't know where to start.

Thanks in advance.

You really have had a horrible time.

There are going to be various issues in trying to make your case now, not least the time that has elapsed since you left service. It's hard to see why your medical records would have been retained for 14 years - GDPR alone would almost certainly dictate that they should have been deleted.

It's extraordinary that neither your union rep nor your employer mentioned ill health early retirement. I have no facts to go on, so forgive me for suggesting this, but is it possible that a medical assessment was done and you quite simply didn't meet the 'permanence' requirement, given how young you were and how uncertain the prognosis can be where mental health issues are concerned? It's a high bar to meet given the huge cost - depending on your salary the cost could run into hundreds of thousands, not just tens of thousands, for someone retiring so young.

I suggest you consider contacting MoneyHelper via their online contact form https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pension-problems and simply pasting the whole of your first post onto the form, asking for guidance on how to proceed. 

There are no guarantees, but I wish you well and hope the above suggestion helps.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread @Marcon but is this site still functioning? I sent first message on 30th May, received no response, so on 16th June sent a further message with the original case number, and again no response, just another case number.

Marcon

becky004 said:

Marcon said:

becky004 said:

Sorry for the long post, but am at a total loss, and am unsure where to seek help from.

I was a midwifery sister, in March of 2009 I became very unwell and went on sick leave (I was 39yrs old, I had worked in the NHS and paid into my pension since April 1991). In May of 2010 I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder & it's manifestations, severe anxiety & severe social anxiety. In June of 2010, I along with my Unison representative attended a meeting with my Midwifery manager and a member of HR, I had been off sick for 16 months & they wanted to discuss my possible return. My representative spoke on my behalf as I was unable to, it was very evident from my behaviour that I was in no position to return. They said they wished to retain me and offered me a further 12 months on unpaid sick leave, my representative explained I did not see a point where I would be able to return (which was true, I had been ill for 16 months and was deteriorating, not improving). So my employment was terminated, at no point was the possibility of ill health retirement mentioned by my Unision representative or my employer, and given my age and mental state it did not enter my head.

Since then I have survived on benefits, I have never been in any other form of employment as I am not well enough. I knew I was able to apply for my pension when I reached 55. I lost my home in 2021 as once my children left education, my benefits more than halved and I could no longer pay my mortgage, so I now live in social housing. I turned 55 last month, so have looked into claiming my pension on health grounds. 

I have been in contact with NHSBSA multiple times via email, I ask direct questions they won't answer, they just send link after link to documents I genuinely can't wrap my head around. I have asked twice if I could possibly speak to someone, again no and links to further documents.

The only question they have answered is, when I asked why I wasn't informed I was entitled to apply for ill health retirement in June of 2010, they told me I should have asked my employer at the time. At the time I couldn't have asked what day of the week it was, nor was I aware that at such a young age it was a possibility for me.

So, had I applied for ill health retirement in 2010 when I had to finish, it appears I would have been on Tier 2, so as I am in the 1995 section I would have been entitled to my pension, plus 2/3 enhancements, which means I wouldn't have lost my home as I would have had enough to pay my mortgage and live. However because I have not been employed within the NHS within the last 5 years, I am considered a deferred member, so while I can apply for ill health retirement, I will receive no enhancements, which is a loss of around £6000 a year.

I do not feel this is fair, as had I been made aware of it in 2010, I would have applied for it straight away, instead of struggling and losing my home. Just wondering if anyone has been through similar, or has any advice on my next step, as I do want to challenge it, but don't know where to start.

Thanks in advance.

You really have had a horrible time.

There are going to be various issues in trying to make your case now, not least the time that has elapsed since you left service. It's hard to see why your medical records would have been retained for 14 years - GDPR alone would almost certainly dictate that they should have been deleted.

It's extraordinary that neither your union rep nor your employer mentioned ill health early retirement. I have no facts to go on, so forgive me for suggesting this, but is it possible that a medical assessment was done and you quite simply didn't meet the 'permanence' requirement, given how young you were and how uncertain the prognosis can be where mental health issues are concerned? It's a high bar to meet given the huge cost - depending on your salary the cost could run into hundreds of thousands, not just tens of thousands, for someone retiring so young.

I suggest you consider contacting MoneyHelper via their online contact form https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pension-problems and simply pasting the whole of your first post onto the form, asking for guidance on how to proceed. 

There are no guarantees, but I wish you well and hope the above suggestion helps.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread @Marcon but is this site still functioning? I sent first message on 30th May, received no response, so on 16th June sent a further message with the original case number, and again no response, just another case number.

That's frustrating for you.  It could be they've simply not had time to deal with your message, but give them a ring: 0800 011 3797 to check.

becky004

So sorry to be a pain, I have now had a response off the link who told me in the first instance I need to complain to my pension scheme administrator. Who is the administrator, the former trust I worked for or the NHSBSA (sorry to appear stupid, but I emailed the NHSBSA for clarification & they just come back with link upon link without answering the question asked!). TIA

Marcon

becky004 said:

So sorry to be a pain, I have now had a response off the link who told me in the first instance I need to complain to my pension scheme administrator. Who is the administrator, the former trust I worked for or the NHSBSA (sorry to appear stupid, but I emailed the NHSBSA for clarification & they just come back with link upon link without answering the question asked!). TIA

You're not being a pain at all, so don't worry about that. 

Happy to send you a suggested draft letter via Private Message if you'd like me to (and if @Silvertabby is around and being her usual helpful and well-informed self, I'll ask her to have a look first - she has loads of experience with public sector scheme, whereas most of mine is in the private sector). Do let me know if so.