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  • Galaxis80
    Galaxis80 Posts: 8 Forumite
    First Post
    LinLui said:
    Whilst I agree that your safety - and the safety of everyone around you including this client - needs to be the main priority, I am concerned about your approach here. It's a little shocking to me that someone in this type of work doesn't understand that capacity and vulnerability are nowhere near the same thing. And you seem to not appreciate that regardless of anything else,  you are effectively saying that he should be removed from his home rather than you being moved because the condition you disclosed after obtaining the job means that you think your needs,  not those of the clients,  should be highest. 

    Your employer has taken steps to remove you from possible harm whilst they assess the situation. They are not in a position to remove him from his home. It's his home! In common with many people who have complex needs and present challenging behaviours, he is no doubt poorly served by the resourcing and standards of social care available. But he also has rights,  and the issue here is not him - it is the fact that it seems his needs are not being met adequately. Treating him as a criminal who is choosing his behaviours deliberately suggests that you are struggling with the complex nature of this area of work,  and perhaps a less challenging role whilst you gain more experience and training would be a good idea? Moving you is not a punishment. It is a sensible precaution, especially if you are a target and are unable to manage this level of complex behaviour. 

    I understand that it is upsetting and scary at times when working with such complex needs. But it isn't just about you. You deserve a safe workplace and your employer has a responsibility to ensure that they provide one. But he deserves a home and the support he needs to manage his challenging behaviour - and if he isn't getting that then he is being massively let down by the organisation and society. 
    His support needs to be changed so someone is with him rather than the staff leaving him at ten and then being able to target people. He goes into the city centre alone using public transport and doesn't target anyone. However, he waits until he sees certain staff (usually women) and goes for them or their cars. He knows exactly who to pick on and as I said, another resident has been cautioned for similar. He has had neighbours chase him so if the home cannot keep him or others safe and can't see fit to actually utilise his staff effectively, then as the police said, maybe he should be in a secure facility. I should be able to go to work without being in constant fear of being attacked. 
  • Galaxis80
    Galaxis80 Posts: 8 Forumite
    First Post
    Marcon said:
    Galaxis80 said:
    Marcon said:
    Galaxis80 said:
    I am sure this is allowed

     I did have an idea that constructive dismissal was always going to be a possibility and feel this is the beginning of it. Do I have any rights?


    If you're sure it is allowed, why are you asking?

    Yes, you have rights - but you also have responsibilities. One of them is to take care of your own health and wellbeing. It's pie in the sky to think that your employer could be on the hook for constructive dismissal when they are taking steps to protect your wellbeing.

    Galaxis80 said:


    To add, soon after I started I explained that due to a previous fractured skull, I have an impaired memory and am ok as long as I stick to the same routines, my memory is ok. I saw the occupational health person so this is all on record. I wonder if I could use this to my advantage?



    More likely that your employer could use it to their advantage, if you only gave this critical piece of relevant information 'soon after you started'.


    What do you actually want to happen?
    There's ongoing lies which have been told to dismiss this man's actions. From when my phone/thumb was injured, something should have been done. Further complaints were made where I stated he was lunging at me when on the wet steps with shopping and another resident. Neighbours have had their cars damaged, staff have put in expenses and there's been so many incident reports and promises of action yet nothing has happened. They apparently can't do much because he has capacity (their words) yet then as soon as action is taken outside of the company, they lie and say he has 'severe vulnerabilities'. And as another staff member warned, they are trying to move me rather than deal with the problem. I have never been redeployed before and my line manager has been fine with any issues and quite understanding yet the top manager is, without apparently seeking any advice, insisting I move despite the issues. My line manager also understands the childcare situation. I did everything correct in telling my manager exactly how my issues were best managed, saw the OH and this was fine at the time. 
    There seems to be a very wide gap between your perception of events and the reality of the situation.

    From what you've posted (which is all anyone here has to go on), this man clearly does have 'severe vulnerabilities'.

    'Dealing with the problem' is more likely to mean getting someone who can cope with his issues as opposed to your preferred option of moving him out of his own home so you can carry on working where you are. You are there to help with his problems, not vice versa - a point you seem to be singularly failing to grasp.

    You didn't tell your employer of your problems before you started the job, but you now want them to keep you in situ so your childcare situation (?where does that come into it?), and 'how [your] issues are best managed...' seem to take priority over his.

    You do need a reality check.
    My perception is reality. The fact he has injured my thumb to the point I have had to have an x ray and see a specialist is kind of the reality. He has tried to headbutt the deputy as well as spit at her. And everything else. Staff can't even go into the back garden to put rubbish in the bins. Now being autistic makes you does make you vulnerable, it doesn't give you a free pass to do what you like! I am not there to help him as I am not his staff and since he injured my thumb, broke my phone, locked me and him in a stairwell and tried to damage car as well as everything else, I certainly won't be working with him. It's mainly agency with him as nobody will work with him. And when have I said he should move. I said something needs to be done because he's now also going after residents as well. So, what is your solution? And it was ACAS that asked if work had consulted me on childcare arrangements due to a completely different location and also advised getting a report from the doctor about my injury. I work with a woman who at first did attack and grab but this is due to anxiety and I can prepare for this - there's triggers. How do you prepare for a certain attack because this individual just so happens to see you? 
  • Galaxis80
    Galaxis80 Posts: 8 Forumite
    First Post
    elsien said:
    I work in your field and know exactly how bad some organisations are and what they can sweep under the carpet. They can only do that  because people turn a blind eye and staff keep their heads down and I wonder whether there’s a lack of management action is starting to fall into the safeguarding field? 
    I said to the deputy manager that there are now neighbours seeing him target their cars and on more than one occasion he has been chased. I said if they grab hold of them, surely the company would be held responsible. They said no as he has capacity?! They can't prevent him leaving the property. It will take something very serious to happen and then I think he will be moved but in the meantime, they have taken absolutely no action to stop it apart from hold meetings with all staff telling us he is 'mischievious'. The women can only safely get in their car if there are male staff around. It's not acceptable no matter what certain others seem to think.
  • Galaxis80
    Galaxis80 Posts: 8 Forumite
    First Post
    Savvy_Sue said:
    What does your union say? (Please tell me you are in a union - it always terrifies me when frontline staff, especially those working with 'difficult' people, don't have union support.)

    Yes, I am in a union and expecting a call on Tuesday. I've spoken briefly with ACAS who have told me to get a copy of OH report and doctor's report.
  • Galaxis80
    Galaxis80 Posts: 8 Forumite
    First Post
    To add to this, for those who think this work environment is in any way acceptable. There is a severely disabled resident there who is non vocal. A male member of staff had not long left and the new staff reported that this man was bleeding out his anus and was flinching. They sacked the member of staff and never involved the police despite there being a good chance of securing DNA evidence. So yes, this company has failed it's staff, residents and will brush things under the carpet. I do know other members of staff have faced similar treatment for speaking out. If a resident brings in lots of money, they will do whatever it takes to keep that resident and to hell with everything else.
  • Marcon
    Marcon Posts: 14,548 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 27 May 2024 at 12:44AM
    Galaxis80 said:
    Marcon said:
    Galaxis80 said:
    Marcon said:
    Galaxis80 said:
    I am sure this is allowed

     I did have an idea that constructive dismissal was always going to be a possibility and feel this is the beginning of it. Do I have any rights?


    If you're sure it is allowed, why are you asking?

    Yes, you have rights - but you also have responsibilities. One of them is to take care of your own health and wellbeing. It's pie in the sky to think that your employer could be on the hook for constructive dismissal when they are taking steps to protect your wellbeing.

    Galaxis80 said:


    To add, soon after I started I explained that due to a previous fractured skull, I have an impaired memory and am ok as long as I stick to the same routines, my memory is ok. I saw the occupational health person so this is all on record. I wonder if I could use this to my advantage?



    More likely that your employer could use it to their advantage, if you only gave this critical piece of relevant information 'soon after you started'.


    What do you actually want to happen?
    There's ongoing lies which have been told to dismiss this man's actions. From when my phone/thumb was injured, something should have been done. Further complaints were made where I stated he was lunging at me when on the wet steps with shopping and another resident. Neighbours have had their cars damaged, staff have put in expenses and there's been so many incident reports and promises of action yet nothing has happened. They apparently can't do much because he has capacity (their words) yet then as soon as action is taken outside of the company, they lie and say he has 'severe vulnerabilities'. And as another staff member warned, they are trying to move me rather than deal with the problem. I have never been redeployed before and my line manager has been fine with any issues and quite understanding yet the top manager is, without apparently seeking any advice, insisting I move despite the issues. My line manager also understands the childcare situation. I did everything correct in telling my manager exactly how my issues were best managed, saw the OH and this was fine at the time. 
    There seems to be a very wide gap between your perception of events and the reality of the situation.

    From what you've posted (which is all anyone here has to go on), this man clearly does have 'severe vulnerabilities'.

    'Dealing with the problem' is more likely to mean getting someone who can cope with his issues as opposed to your preferred option of moving him out of his own home so you can carry on working where you are. You are there to help with his problems, not vice versa - a point you seem to be singularly failing to grasp.

    You didn't tell your employer of your problems before you started the job, but you now want them to keep you in situ so your childcare situation (?where does that come into it?), and 'how [your] issues are best managed...' seem to take priority over his.

    You do need a reality check.
    My perception is reality. The fact he has injured my thumb to the point I have had to have an x ray and see a specialist is kind of the reality. He has tried to headbutt the deputy as well as spit at her. And everything else. Staff can't even go into the back garden to put rubbish in the bins. Now being autistic makes you does make you vulnerable, it doesn't give you a free pass to do what you like! I am not there to help him as I am not his staff and since he injured my thumb, broke my phone, locked me and him in a stairwell and tried to damage car as well as everything else, I certainly won't be working with him. It's mainly agency with him as nobody will work with him. And when have I said he should move. I said something needs to be done because he's now also going after residents as well. So, what is your solution? And it was ACAS that asked if work had consulted me on childcare arrangements due to a completely different location and also advised getting a report from the doctor about my injury. I work with a woman who at first did attack and grab but this is due to anxiety and I can prepare for this - there's triggers. How do you prepare for a certain attack because this individual just so happens to see you? 
    'My' solution is irrelevant. You're still in a parallel universe - your employer will protect your wellbeing by moving you. You seem to be repeatedly objecting to that because it doesn't meet your needs - needs you only chose to reveal to your employer AFTER you started work.

    What is your solution?
    Googling on your question might have been both quicker and easier, if you're only after simple facts rather than opinions!  
  • LinLui
    LinLui Posts: 570 Forumite
    500 Posts Name Dropper
    Galaxis80 said:
    To add to this, for those who think this work environment is in any way acceptable. 

    You simply aren't getting it. Nobody has said that the work environment is acceptable. But what you want is people who agree with your solution, which is to treat a disabled person with complex needs as a criminal and to remove him from his home for your convenience. Based on what you have said it does appear that there is reason to be concerned for the safety and lack of appropriate support for this individual. But your answer is that you should stay in the environment that you say is unsafe for you because it is convenient for you.

    Here's a question. You are a social care professional. You have observed what you say are unmet social care needs in a resident that is putting the resident and others at risk. And you have observed that situation over many months. You have reported it to the management, to the police, to ACAS, to the union - all about you. You are also aware of what you claim to be serious malpractice which has been ignored. Have you reported it to the appropriate authorities for safeguarding? Because you haven't once mentioned your professional duty to safeguard any of these people who you suggest are being put at risk by your employer. 
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 36,140 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Added to which ACAS helpline staff are not trained in employment law. Your employer is not under a duty to consider your childcare arrangements when moving you to another location. Your childcare is your problem to deal with, not theirs. 



    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 36,140 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Galaxis80 said:
    To add to this, for those who think this work environment is in any way acceptable. There is a severely disabled resident there who is non vocal. A male member of staff had not long left and the new staff reported that this man was bleeding out his anus and was flinching. They sacked the member of staff and never involved the police despite there being a good chance of securing DNA evidence. So yes, this company has failed it's staff, residents and will brush things under the carpet. I do know other members of staff have faced similar treatment for speaking out. If a resident brings in lots of money, they will do whatever it takes to keep that resident and to hell with everything else.
    So what did any of the existing staff who should know this is completely unacceptable do about this? Everyone in the social care field has an individual duty of care towards their clients. This gentleman appears to have been completely failed by all of you.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 47,355 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Galaxis80 said:
    Savvy_Sue said:
    What does your union say? (Please tell me you are in a union - it always terrifies me when frontline staff, especially those working with 'difficult' people, don't have union support.)

    Yes, I am in a union and expecting a call on Tuesday. I've spoken briefly with ACAS who have told me to get a copy of OH report and doctor's report.
    your question is "Is this allowed?" The response here seems to be yes, it is, and that moving you to another location on a temporary basis is a reasonable thing to do. 

    ACAS aren't always reliable, and it is the union who will support you in the workplace. 

    It does seem that there are serious shortcomings, and these should be reported to the CQC. Again, your union are there to support you in doing this. 
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