HMRC Overstated Income Estimate

RG2015

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

[Deleted User] said:

RG2015 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

Here’s an interesting one.

There are 93 days from 4 January to 5 April and £2,662.50 x 93 = £247,612.50. This cannot be a coincidence.

However I cannot see why HMRC (or HL) would see a one off withdrawal as a potential daily income for the remainder of the tax year.

I have advised them of the correct figure and they said it would be updated in 48 hours, but that was 5 days ago. I guess they are bogged down with correcting crazy errors.

Is it possible HL reported that this pension started on 4 January 2024 and by 4 January 2024 you had been paid £2,662.50.

Which would be £247,612 if that (highly unlikely) pattern continued?

The anomaly was noticed a few days ago. Hence the only reported payment between 4 January and 8 March was the single one on 4 January.

If they had assumed a daily pattern where were the 60 odd daily payments from 5 January to early March?

Unfortunately HMRC only act upon each subsequent RTI submission. In this case there were none. 

This from HMRC on 6 March 2013.

From 6 April, employers will be required to move to a new way of reporting PAYE called RTI where they report each time they pay their employees, rather than annually. This updates the PAYE system so that it is quicker, easier and more accurate.

Certainly looks like a bug in the system. Has this happened to others I ask myself?

Did I hear that HMRC use Horizon?

Are you saying HL have submitted further payroll information and it's missing from your PTA?

Irrespective of that though employers might have to report each pay day but that doesn't mean HMRC react to every single RTI report filed.

There is nothing missing from the PTA, but no possible reason why they should asssume the single payment would be repeated for the subsequent 92 days..

My point was why did they record one payment and assume the (mythical) following 60 had not been submitted.

As far as I know HMRC don't recalculate things every time you happen to look at your PTA.

There needs to be a prompt for that to happen, like (another) new pension or you providing some new information which prompts a tax code review.

Thanks  @Dazed_and_C0nfused

But we are digressing. Do you have any idea why HMRC have created such a ridiculous estimate?

My options are a computer bug or human incompetence, unless you could suggest an alternative explanation.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

RG2015 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

[Deleted User] said:

RG2015 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

Here’s an interesting one.

There are 93 days from 4 January to 5 April and £2,662.50 x 93 = £247,612.50. This cannot be a coincidence.

However I cannot see why HMRC (or HL) would see a one off withdrawal as a potential daily income for the remainder of the tax year.

I have advised them of the correct figure and they said it would be updated in 48 hours, but that was 5 days ago. I guess they are bogged down with correcting crazy errors.

Is it possible HL reported that this pension started on 4 January 2024 and by 4 January 2024 you had been paid £2,662.50.

Which would be £247,612 if that (highly unlikely) pattern continued?

The anomaly was noticed a few days ago. Hence the only reported payment between 4 January and 8 March was the single one on 4 January.

If they had assumed a daily pattern where were the 60 odd daily payments from 5 January to early March?

Unfortunately HMRC only act upon each subsequent RTI submission. In this case there were none. 

This from HMRC on 6 March 2013.

From 6 April, employers will be required to move to a new way of reporting PAYE called RTI where they report each time they pay their employees, rather than annually. This updates the PAYE system so that it is quicker, easier and more accurate.

Certainly looks like a bug in the system. Has this happened to others I ask myself?

Did I hear that HMRC use Horizon?

Are you saying HL have submitted further payroll information and it's missing from your PTA?

Irrespective of that though employers might have to report each pay day but that doesn't mean HMRC react to every single RTI report filed.

There is nothing missing from the PTA, but no possible reason why they should asssume the single payment would be repeated for the subsequent 92 days..

My point was why did they record one payment and assume the (mythical) following 60 had not been submitted.

As far as I know HMRC don't recalculate things every time you happen to look at your PTA.

There needs to be a prompt for that to happen, like (another) new pension or you providing some new information which prompts a tax code review.

Thanks  @Dazed_and_C0nfused

But we are digressing. Do you have any idea why HMRC have created such a ridiculous estimate?

My options are a computer bug or human incompetence, unless you could suggest an alternative explanation.

I suspect it is this.  When I said if the pattern continued I meant HMRC would estimate your pension based on that first Real Time Information report so if you had received £2662.50 for a single days pension then the estimate, at that point, could reasonably be £247,612.

Is it possible HL reported that this pension started on 4 January 2024 and by 4 January 2024 you had been paid £2,662.50.

Which would be £247,612 if that (highly unlikely) pattern continued?

RG2015

I find it surprising that you are suggesting that any of this is reasonable.

I do have one further question though.

If I had not identified the arithmetic factor of 93 days in my original post, would you have come up with it?

Dazed_and_C0nfused

RG2015 said:

I find it surprising that you are suggesting that any of this is reasonable.

I do have one further question though.

If I had not identified the arithmetic factor of 93 days in my original post, would you have come up with it?

Not initially no, I would have got stuck for a bit on 92 days and the maths wouldn't work but I'd have eventually remembered it was a leap year!

You could use webchat (type advisor a couple of times to get a human) and ask if they can confirm what date HL have said your pension started.


https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/income-tax-enquiries-for-individuals-pensioners-and-employees

RG2015

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

I find it surprising that you are suggesting that any of this is reasonable.

I do have one further question though.

If I had not identified the arithmetic factor of 93 days in my original post, would you have come up with it?

Not initially no, I would have got stuck for a bit on 92 days and the maths wouldn't work but I'd have eventually remembered it was a leap year!

You could use webchat (type advisor a couple of times to get a human) and ask if they can confirm what date HL have said your pension started.


https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/income-tax-enquiries-for-individuals-pensioners-and-employees

Thanks.

Does it make a difference that it was not a pension per se, but a one off SIPP UFPLS withdrawal.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

RG2015 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

RG2015 said:

I find it surprising that you are suggesting that any of this is reasonable.

I do have one further question though.

If I had not identified the arithmetic factor of 93 days in my original post, would you have come up with it?

Not initially no, I would have got stuck for a bit on 92 days and the maths wouldn't work but I'd have eventually remembered it was a leap year!

You could use webchat (type advisor a couple of times to get a human) and ask if they can confirm what date HL have said your pension started.


https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/income-tax-enquiries-for-individuals-pensioners-and-employees

Thanks.

Does it make a difference that it was not a pension per se, but a one off SIPP UFPLS withdrawal.

Yes, I would have expected the estimate to be identical to the payment on the Real Time Information submission in that case.

Does this source show as a ceased pension in the Personal Tax Account?

HL should have reported an end date if the pension pot was emptied.

RG2015

There is still £50 in the SIPP as per advice on this site and from HL.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

RG2015 said:

There is still £50 in the SIPP as per advice on this site and from HL.

So it's not actually a one off and in that case they wouldn't report an end date.

RG2015

Updated the income estimate online and it said it would be updated in 48 hours. It wasn't updated and the 48 hour message disappeared.

Tried again twice and each time it said it would update in 48 hours and it didn't. 

It also now says it was provided by me rather than by HL as it had previously said.