Buying a property for my retired mother with dementia

LHW99

There are really two questions.

The first is buying a house for your mother as Attorney. That would bring down a lot of issues in relation to deprivation of assets, as well as not being in your mother's best interest. I believe the OPG can investigate if anyone should raise that issue, and it could be regarded as something where the OPG would step in as legal "guardian".

The second is your brother's housing situation. It has to be considered separately IMO, and other solutions searched out and considered. For example, would he be considered for a housing association property, local authority housing or support from benefits? You may find asking that specific question on one of the other MSE boards may bring useful comments.

Fermion

Fermion said:

Yes - you should buy the property with your Mother and Brother as Tenants in Common 50:50 - that avoids any issues - plus the fact that your brother will be living in the property

Your Mother or your family  might have missed a trick when her own elderly mother passed away. Your family should have considered making a deed of variation for part of her inheritance in favour of your brother or yourself - (for info deed of variations for Will beneficiaries are not considered deprivation of assets as the assets were not owned)

Just to clarify my previous comments - given the fact that your Mother and Brother are being forced to move from the current rented accommodation, then it's perfectly reasonable for you as attorney to consider using your Mother's assets to purchase a property. Given current high rental costs and Care Home costs that might be a good  financially viable approach. Regarding Tenants in Common with your Mother and Brother - that is possible but my 50-50 statement are incorrect - the legal advice I have been given in the past is to register the title as Tenants in Common but get the Solicitor to write a Deed of Trust stating that 100% of the proceeds of any future sale go to your Mother. That way your Brother has a degree of protection without transfer of assets. You should take legal advice and explore this, but I don't believe that you need the approval of the Court of Protection to purchase a property as attorney for your Mother if it's in her best financial interest.

I assume that you also have a LPoA for Health and Welfare as well. You need also to consider the quality of Life for your mother in a home care situation with a live-in family carer vs a Care Home scenario. It's well documented (and I know from personal experience) that the Life Expectancy and quality of life of the former is far superior. I actually think its something that most local authority social services team would recommend.

Regarding my comments of deed of variation for the Will - I wasn't sure how long ago this occurred and if your Mother had dementia at that time. I agree you would not be able to do this as an attorney. There have been a number of test cases some of which have been lost - but as with all indirect scenarios at lot depends on timescales and specific circumstances. If your Mother had her own Will with a Will commentary document then that might have changed things. Again Legal advice would be required.

SVaz

Invest most of the inheritance on her behalf in fixed term ISA / savings and use it for bought-in-care help to give your Brother a break.   

On £100k,  she’d get £5k in interest,  you get get £40k straight into an ISA if you act quickly - £20k now and £20k after April 5th. 

Marcon

Fermion said:

Fermion said:

Yes - you should buy the property with your Mother and Brother as Tenants in Common 50:50 - that avoids any issues - plus the fact that your brother will be living in the property

Your Mother or your family  might have missed a trick when her own elderly mother passed away. Your family should have considered making a deed of variation for part of her inheritance in favour of your brother or yourself - (for info deed of variations for Will beneficiaries are not considered deprivation of assets as the assets were not owned)

Just to clarify my previous comments - given the fact that your Mother and Brother are being forced to move from the current rented accommodation, then it's perfectly reasonable for you as attorney to consider using your Mother's assets to purchase a property. 

No, it isn't. The mother isn't being 'forced' to move from the current rented accommodation; any move would be because she needs to go into a care home. That being so, there is no possible justification for OP as attorney to buy a house the mother will never need.

Pollycat

Fermion said:

Fermion said:

Yes - you should buy the property with your Mother and Brother as Tenants in Common 50:50 - that avoids any issues - plus the fact that your brother will be living in the property

Your Mother or your family  might have missed a trick when her own elderly mother passed away. Your family should have considered making a deed of variation for part of her inheritance in favour of your brother or yourself - (for info deed of variations for Will beneficiaries are not considered deprivation of assets as the assets were not owned)

Just to clarify my previous comments - given the fact that your Mother and Brother are being forced to move from the current rented accommodation, then it's perfectly reasonable for you as attorney to consider using your Mother's assets to purchase a property. Given current high rental costs and Care Home costs that might be a good  financially viable approach. Regarding Tenants in Common with your Mother and Brother - that is possible but my 50-50 statement are incorrect - the legal advice I have been given in the past is to register the title as Tenants in Common but get the Solicitor to write a Deed of Trust stating that 100% of the proceeds of any future sale go to your Mother. That way your Brother has a degree of protection without transfer of assets. You should take legal advice and explore this, but I don't believe that you need the approval of the Court of Protection to purchase a property as attorney for your Mother if it's in her best financial interest.

It's a fact that the OP's Mother & brother are not being forced to move.

[Deleted User] said:

My mother has dementia and I have power of attorney for both her finance and health. She currently lives in a rented house with my brother, who is her official carer. Her pension covers all the rent, bills, and expenses. She doesn't own any property, but finally has the funds to do so (sadly only recently due to her own, very elderly mother passing away).

I am worried that if her health deteriorates further, and she needs to go into a home, all of her savings above £23,500 will go on her healthcare. Also my brother, who is not in the best shape himself and cannot work, will become homeless as I would not be allowed, as the attorney, to keep paying the rent and bills if my mother moved out.

It's a financial decision to try to avoid the possibility of paying care home fees.

Fermion said: I don't believe that you need the approval of the Court of Protection to purchase a property as attorney for your Mother if it's in her best financial interest.

Why do you think it's in the OP's Mother's best financial interest?
What financial  benefit will the Mother be getting?

Upheaval moving from a place she's currently living in?
Any financial benefit will be for the brother and the OP.

Fermion said:

I assume that you also have a LPoA for Health and Welfare as well. You need also to consider the quality of Life for your mother in a home care situation with a live-in family carer vs a Care Home scenario. It's well documented (and I know from personal experience) that the Life Expectancy and quality of life of the former is far superior. I actually think its something that most local authority social services team would recommend.

If they stay in the current, rented house the brother will continue to be carer.
Why do they need to buy a house and move?

elsien

Plus there will be more money to pay for extra support if they stay put rather than tying up the inheritance in a bought property that is not needed as mum appears perfectly happy where she is. 

Marcon

Marcon said:

[Deleted User] said:

My mother has dementia and I have power of attorney for both her finance and health. She currently lives in a rented house with my brother, who is her official carer. Her pension covers all the rent, bills, and expenses. She doesn't own any property, but finally has the funds to do so (sadly only recently due to her own, very elderly mother passing away).

I am worried that if her health deteriorates further, and she needs to go into a home, all of her savings above £23,500 will go on her healthcare. Also my brother, who is not in the best shape himself and cannot work, will become homeless as I would not be allowed, as the attorney, to keep paying the rent and bills if my mother moved out.

I have been advised by a financial adviser to buy a property for my mother as soon as possible, however this would need to be her primary residence and I am concerned that moving her might make her condition worse. If I were to buy a property for my mother would it be possible to also include both mine and my bother's names on the deeds? If so, would this protect the house from being sold in the event that my mother needed to go into a home? If all our names were on the deeds would it still need to be my mother's primary residence? Are there any other options that I could explore to safeguard my mother's saving, and keep a roof over my brother's head?

As attorney, your role is to act solely in the best interests of your mother, and various things in your post might fall foul of that requirement, however well intentioned and sensible they might appear to many people. 

There is also the matter of taking an action which, if deemed to be designed to increase your mother's reliance on public funds (delilberate deprivation of assets), is always going to be doomed to failure. 

I don't think you can rely on this sort of forum to give you accurate and fully informed advice on which you can safely rely, 

I can only repeat an extract from my first post! One poster here is giving some fine examples of the dangers of relying on a public forum....

Pollycat

Marcon said:

Marcon said:

[Deleted User] said:

My mother has dementia and I have power of attorney for both her finance and health. She currently lives in a rented house with my brother, who is her official carer. Her pension covers all the rent, bills, and expenses. She doesn't own any property, but finally has the funds to do so (sadly only recently due to her own, very elderly mother passing away).

I am worried that if her health deteriorates further, and she needs to go into a home, all of her savings above £23,500 will go on her healthcare. Also my brother, who is not in the best shape himself and cannot work, will become homeless as I would not be allowed, as the attorney, to keep paying the rent and bills if my mother moved out.

I have been advised by a financial adviser to buy a property for my mother as soon as possible, however this would need to be her primary residence and I am concerned that moving her might make her condition worse. If I were to buy a property for my mother would it be possible to also include both mine and my bother's names on the deeds? If so, would this protect the house from being sold in the event that my mother needed to go into a home? If all our names were on the deeds would it still need to be my mother's primary residence? Are there any other options that I could explore to safeguard my mother's saving, and keep a roof over my brother's head?

As attorney, your role is to act solely in the best interests of your mother, and various things in your post might fall foul of that requirement, however well intentioned and sensible they might appear to many people. 

There is also the matter of taking an action which, if deemed to be designed to increase your mother's reliance on public funds (delilberate deprivation of assets), is always going to be doomed to failure. 

I don't think you can rely on this sort of forum to give you accurate and fully informed advice on which you can safely rely, 

I can only repeat an extract from my first post! One poster here is giving some fine examples of the dangers of relying on a public forum....

+ 1 to this.

Is anyone else shocked at the advice that the OP said they were given by a financial advisor to put the inheritance from the OP's Mum's Mum into property?

Marcon

Pollycat said:

Marcon said:

Marcon said:

[Deleted User] said:

My mother has dementia and I have power of attorney for both her finance and health. She currently lives in a rented house with my brother, who is her official carer. Her pension covers all the rent, bills, and expenses. She doesn't own any property, but finally has the funds to do so (sadly only recently due to her own, very elderly mother passing away).

I am worried that if her health deteriorates further, and she needs to go into a home, all of her savings above £23,500 will go on her healthcare. Also my brother, who is not in the best shape himself and cannot work, will become homeless as I would not be allowed, as the attorney, to keep paying the rent and bills if my mother moved out.

I have been advised by a financial adviser to buy a property for my mother as soon as possible, however this would need to be her primary residence and I am concerned that moving her might make her condition worse. If I were to buy a property for my mother would it be possible to also include both mine and my bother's names on the deeds? If so, would this protect the house from being sold in the event that my mother needed to go into a home? If all our names were on the deeds would it still need to be my mother's primary residence? Are there any other options that I could explore to safeguard my mother's saving, and keep a roof over my brother's head?

As attorney, your role is to act solely in the best interests of your mother, and various things in your post might fall foul of that requirement, however well intentioned and sensible they might appear to many people. 

There is also the matter of taking an action which, if deemed to be designed to increase your mother's reliance on public funds (delilberate deprivation of assets), is always going to be doomed to failure. 

I don't think you can rely on this sort of forum to give you accurate and fully informed advice on which you can safely rely, 

I can only repeat an extract from my first post! One poster here is giving some fine examples of the dangers of relying on a public forum....

+ 1 to this.

Is anyone else shocked at the advice that the OP said they were given by a financial advisor to put the inheritance from the OP's Mum into property?

Sadly not, but I'd certainly be asking the firm concerned to explain how that reconciles with a situation where the donor has lost capacity; and a move would (as OP correctly recognises) probably make her condition worse, so should be avoided if at all possible.

Fermion

We don't know the full circumstances here - it's possible that the current rental property is not suitable in it's current state or that Local Authority occupational therapeutics have recommended equipment or changes to the property layout which can't be done as it's a rental. Hopefully the advice will have come from multiple sources.