2024 Fashion On The Ration Challenge

PipneyJane

Laura_Elsewhere said:

@PipneyJane, it’s the one where she returns to nursing while Bill is in the TB sanatorium, hence why she gets out her old uniform dresses. I love those books!! 

That would be Sue Barton Staff Nurse @Laura_Elsewhere.

Have a look at some 1939s knitting patterns that specify being for ‘matronly’ figures- the illustrative photos show women who are distinctly a much larger size all over!! I don’t think I recall the word being used about young women- it was for middle-aged women.

And think of Granma in the Giles cartoons- almost a cube in shape! My great-grandmothers were both very stout, probably about a modern size 22-24 like me, or a bit bigger given that they would be wearing sturdy corsetry under their clothing.
…

I don’t know the Giles cartoons - must do a Google.  

A lot of those Matron patterns are written for a 36 inch or 38 inch bust - not large by modern standards (Marilyn Monroe would have qualified).  However, has to be remembered that most knitters were highly skilled in the art of resizing patterns, since few had the “standard” 32 inch bust. 

The triple-drug therapy was discovered in 1956 by John Crofton’s team in Edinburgh, but the individual meds had been used unsuccessfully for long enough to make it worth trying the triple-drug approach… which so nearly eradicated TB… very sad…

Sadly, not everywhere was as thorough as Australia in their screening and vaccinating for TB.  (We had a compulsory chest x-ray program that extended into the 1970’s.  I remember the mobile screening unit parking up in the local shopping centre.). However, even with that going on, in the 1980’s I looked after a handful of patients with active TB.  Several were Vietnamese refugees. One was a Yugoslavian lady, who’d developed TB meningitis. 

- Pip

Sarahspangles

Laura_Elsewhere said:

One of the problems with numbered sizing is that different makers of clothing as well as sewing patterns used different schemes. I can't remember who or what now, but I have seen interwar patterns sized with the number meaning the waist in inches, and others with the number meaning the bust in inches and still others with the number meaning the hips- and of course that might vary within just one maker for eg skirt or blouse, so you might buy a 36 blouse pattern to wear with your 42 skirt... 

I learned something interesting* from my seamstress** grandmother about bust sizing.

Nana said that originally you would buy a pattern which included adjustments for A, B, C, or D fullness of bust. A = 1” difference up to D = 4”. However this wasn’t the difference between a bra underband measure to one taken over the fullest part. It was the difference between the high chest measurement under the arms and the fullest part.

As women moved from wearing corsets or girdles to wearing bras, the letter was a useful starting point to describe fullness. But it wasn’t based on any real life measurements of women or measured dimensions of a bra.  This is why the published sizing guides for bras never made sense - all that adding 4” or 5” stuff. And all those articles that say women have bigger boobs today because you can buy a K are nonsense.

* Interesting in a niche way! ** Not the Discworld kind of seamstress.

PipneyJane

Sarahspangles said:

maryb said:

I think a lot of working class women did get pretty large.  Think of all those old photos of doughty ladies in their crossover pinnies chatting on the doorstep. 

I’m instantly imagining Cissie and Ada (Roy Barraclough and Les Dawson) adjusting their bos-ooms.

My family were mostly working class until my parents’ generation. I’d say the ladies who were overweight or obese were 50% genetically predisposed that way and 50% eating (and drinking) the wrong stuff. Irrespective of how hard they worked in or out of the house. I have some sympathy, if within living memory your community had been hungry, and you yourself had had a family with small children to get through rationing, being able to feed people nice things felt like a positive.

One of the British sewing pattern houses had different pattern grading for ‘Misses’, and then over time that became the default. As well as 8 - 10 - 12 I think there were odd numbers for more mature shapes.

The infamous British sugar addiction, @Saraspangles?  I can’t remember now where I read it, but I do remember being shocked at the average amount of sugar consumed pre-War.   It may have been mentioned by Marguerite Patten.  (I was lucky enough to attend one of her talks, 20 years ago.). No, I don’t remember the amount consumed, just that the sugar ration was keenly felt by the majority.  What is indisputable is that the health of the nation improved because of rationing.

Sarahspangles said:

basketcase said:

Sarahspangles said:

I’d say the ladies who were overweight or obese were 50% genetically predisposed that way and 50% eating (and drinking) the wrong stuff. Irrespective of how hard they worked in or out of the house. 

One of the British sewing pattern houses had different pattern grading for ‘Misses’, and then over time that became the default. As well as 8 - 10 - 12 I think there were odd numbers for more mature shapes.

I think there was also the fact that awareness/treatment of thyroid problems wasn't as common as it is now - or perhaps isn't caught as soon. eg The last time I saw anybody with a goitre was as a child in the late 50s.  (Probably partly due to more frequent use of iodised salt, which we always had). 

Also underactive thyroid problems are common in my family.  Mine and my niece's were treated fairly early, my mother's wasn't even recognised until later in life.  Partly, I think, because putting on weight later in life was accepted as 'normal' so many cases would be missed.

I remember the "odd number" pattern sizes.  It never occurred to me that they were for more mature shapes!  I always assumed it was a practical thing for in-betweeners who had to buy "large 12/small 14" sizes or alter patterns up or down so they'd fit.  Very enterprising, as it attracted people who could sew, but not change patterns - not to mention SEPs (Standard English Pear-shaped) who had to put up with tight skirts, or... ahem... loose tops with standard patterns.

I can remember people referring to ‘Derbyshire neck’ rather than goitre. We also had Cerebos iodised salt in the cupboard, my mother said that if we ate vegetables all from one locality (granddad’s allotment!) there was a risk. There must have been someone in the family affected at some point for her to say that, though we’re a Yorkshire lot.

I found a reference to odd-numbered sizing. I’m astonished to see that originally a size 8 was literally the size you would make for a child that age! Though a modern 8 will no doubt be larger.

http://midvalevintagepost.blogspot.com/2012/06/history-of-sewing-vintage-pattern-sizes.html

Clothing sizing has changed over the years and varies between nations.  When I was a regular sewer - 1980’s-1990’s - a women’s size 10 dress pattern would have been a British or Australian size 8, which was an American size 6.  Now, though, it’s probably an American size 0.  (Don’t quote me on that - I may be wrong.)

- Pip

Sarahspangles

PipneyJane said:

The triple-drug therapy was discovered in 1956 by John Crofton’s team in Edinburgh, but the individual meds had been used unsuccessfully for long enough to make it worth trying the triple-drug approach… which so nearly eradicated TB… very sad…

Sadly, not everywhere was as thorough as Australia in their screening and vaccinating for TB.  (We had a compulsory chest x-ray program that extended into the 1970’s.  I remember the mobile screening unit parking up in the local shopping centre.). However, even with that going on, in the 1980’s I looked after a handful of patients with active TB.  Several were Vietnamese refugees. One was a Yugoslavian lady, who’d developed TB meningitis. 

- Pip

My current Ministry job involved a discussion on this very topic just this week

PipneyJane

Welcome back @basketcase. We’ve missed you. 

Laura_Elsewhere said:

One of the problems with numbered sizing is that different makers of clothing as well as sewing patterns used different schemes. I can't remember who or what now, but I have seen interwar patterns sized with the number meaning the waist in inches, and others with the number meaning the bust in inches and still others with the number meaning the hips- and of course that might vary within just one maker for eg skirt or blouse, so you might buy a 36 blouse pattern to wear with your 42 skirt... 
Children's sizes I think were always age-average, same as nowadays- you buy children's clothing in a size called "age 6-8". It's still fairly variable- I actually buy children's cotton-rich school tights, and cut off the tops and hem thge cut leg-edges to give me long over-the-klnee socks. Given that I am an adult size 22-24, it really REALLY makes me wonder about their "age 10-12" schoolgirls' legs...!!!!! (Yes, I know there's stretching involved but all the same- it baffles me that they fit!). 

In public health terms, the late 19th and early 20th centuries are renowned for mass malnutrition in Britain, much of which was due to the poorest people in urban settings living mostly on potatoes & margarine and bread & margarine with buckets of sweet tea and occasional fish and chips, but not much else, literally- the Boer War triggered the 1904 Report into the Physical Deterioration of the Nation, which in turn led to the 1906 legislation introducing the first school meals- which themselves were frequently porridge, or bread and dripping or bread and margarine. So you do get a lot of older people who are obese, from exactly the same causes as many nowadays- eating a diet that is sufficient in calories but insufficient in nutrients. 

Exactly my thoughts @Laura_Elsewhere

Sarahspangles said:

PipneyJane said:

The triple-drug therapy was discovered in 1956 by John Crofton’s team in Edinburgh, but the individual meds had been used unsuccessfully for long enough to make it worth trying the triple-drug approach… which so nearly eradicated TB… very sad…

Sadly, not everywhere was as thorough as Australia in their screening and vaccinating for TB.  (We had a compulsory chest x-ray program that extended into the 1970’s.  I remember the mobile screening unit parking up in the local shopping centre.). However, even with that going on, in the 1980’s I looked after a handful of patients with active TB.  Several were Vietnamese refugees. One was a Yugoslavian lady, who’d developed TB meningitis. 

- Pip

My current Ministry job involved a discussion on this very topic just this week

I do wonder if not vaccinating is a false economy @Saraspangles.  I know that BCG’s do not last forever - I’ve been vaccinated twice, once at 14 and once at 24 - and was tested every time I started staffing at a new hospital.  (NB:  I left nursing in 1992.)

- Pip

Sarahspangles

PipneyJane said:

Sarahspangles said:

I’d say the ladies who were overweight or obese were 50% genetically predisposed that way and 50% eating (and drinking) the wrong stuff. Irrespective of how hard they worked in or out of the house. I have some sympathy, if within living memory your community had been hungry, and you yourself had had a family with small children to get through rationing, being able to feed people nice things felt like a positive.

The infamous British sugar addiction, @Saraspangles?  I can’t remember now where I read it, but I do remember being shocked at the average amount of sugar consumed pre-War.   It may have been mentioned by Marguerite Patten.  (I was lucky enough to attend one of her talks, 20 years ago.). No, I don’t remember the amount consumed, just that the sugar ration was keenly felt by the majority.  What is indisputable is that the health of the nation improved because of rationing.

They were simply told that sugar was energy food, and it tastes nice so they thought they were doing the right thing, and their families certainly didn’t mind. Me and my cousins were just reminiscing that one Nana would feed us sugar sandwiches! Or ‘pobs’, which was white bread crusts soaked in milk. However they also seemed to be aware that men needed protein foods, presumably by observation of their work output if they didn’t have enough protein.

In the next generation, my mother was worried about something called ‘night starvation’ which you could combat by giving your children cereal or Ovaltine.

I don’t think it was inevitable for people to gain weight. My slim Nana recommended cutting out all bread, potatoes and cakes and using sweetener if you wanted to manage or lose weight. But she learned that from associating with dancers, not from any public health messaging.

Laura_Elsewhere

Back to Making Do & Mending... I decided to finish knitting the pair of socks I absent-mindedly paused a good two years ago, lovely socks, although a bit complex... 
You're ahead of me here, aren't you?  

Very very sketchy notes jotted down on a scrap of paper, argh...!

They'll be worth it though... now onto the foot of the second one, but I really must make better notes at the time! 

Cherryfudge

Sarahspangles said:

I learned something interesting* from my seamstress** grandmother about bust sizing.

* Interesting in a niche way! ** Not the Discworld kind of seamstress.

It did come to mind... 

@Laura_Elsewhere - those will be fab for bonfire night. I think I can read the note, but might need help to understand it!

Nelliegrace

The BBC Home Service put a short wireless programme to encourage men and women to exercise.

https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/page/7a7c5eb48fa3456ab27dce7e9638e0c5?page=6

My mother was in The Women’s League of Health and Beauty, wearing her white satin blouse, black bloomers and swinging a hefty wooden club, with a group of women in the village hall every week. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UbO9RAXHdHU

Nelliegrace

The hospital League of Friends had a fundraising stall at Bridgnorth market today. I felt that I had to support such a good cause and bought two pairs of hand knitted gloves, and they were coupon free! I expect that they are using up every spare bit of wool they can find, and there were some original mixed colours in the knitted pull-on hats. 

Then I visited the overseas aid charity shop and found a one-and-three-quarter pint Denby Homestead teapot. I would have been jumping for joy, but I was hugging it very carefully down the steep steps from Hightown. The metal railings there have been taken for scrap, and the wall is too low to give much support. The leaves made it slippery underfoot.

We were glad of our flask of tea on the train because there were no staff for the buffet car, and like so many railway journeys, we were delayed to let another train through. I expect that their journey really was necessary. 

We visited a pub for lunch, and I was served a small glass of rather weak beer and a hot pasty which was mainly vegetables, but very tasty. The fire, which used to be heaped with coal, had just one small log, and none put out for customers to build up a blaze. Times are hard for many and we need to do our bit. DH had a letter to confirm that his winter fuel allowance has been stopped, such a waste of paper and a stamp, to write to everyone, when it was announced in the newspaper.