How do people see UK's judicial system?

astron4

I've so far brought one person and one company to small claims court and won both cases.

I've done a lot of things thereafter, including an order for questioning that the defendant did not attend, chased with HCEOs, submitted statutory demands etc.

Neither seems to be alarmed by any of these. As a sane person, I would have expected that seeing court action, a normal person would have been alarmed and paid up the owed amount, even more so when the process escalates to HCEOs and bailiffs knocking at your door.

One of the defendants has no assets and works on money under the table, and the other works in the UK but also resides in the EU (travels back and forth).

I even reported one of the defendants to the police as a serial scammer since a few others have reported him as a scammer (including my next door neighbour), to which I've got a box standard reply that they don't have enough data to pursue this etc, or something along these lines.

All of this brings me to the question: Do people normally get alarmed and pay the owed amount upon judicial action? Do they wait until push comes to shove and then pay up? I would expect this of course to be true for tradesmen who live from odd job to odd job.

Personally, if I were a tradesman and knew how this process doesn't work works, I would have done the same if I owed someone money, as I'd know that there is no way for the creditor to get his money back. It's really sad and shows a broken state.

MattMattMattUK

astron4 said:

I've so far brought one person and one company to small claims court and won both cases.

I've done a lot of things thereafter, including an order for questioning that the defendant did not attend, chased with HCEOs, submitted statutory demands etc.

Neither seems to be alarmed by any of these. As a sane person, I would have expected that seeing court action, a normal person would have been alarmed and paid up the owed amount, even more so when the process escalates to HCEOs and bailiffs knocking at your door.

One of the defendants has no assets and works on money under the table, and the other works in the UK but also resides in the EU (travels back and forth).

I even reported one of the defendants to the police as a serial scammer since a few others have reported him as a scammer (including my next door neighbour), to which I've got a box standard reply that they don't have enough data to pursue this etc, or something along these lines.

All of this brings me to the question: Do people normally get alarmed and pay the owed amount upon judicial action? Do they wait until push comes to shove and then pay up? I would expect this of course to be true for tradesmen who live from odd job to odd job.

Personally, if I were a tradesman and knew how this process doesn't work works, I would have done the same if I owed someone money, as I'd know that there is no way for the creditor to get his money back. It's really sad and shows a broken state.

How did you ever expect to recover money from someone with no assets and no legal income?

People care when money can be recovered from them, if recovery is impossible then any legal threats you make are hollow.

astron4

How did you ever expect to recover money from someone with no assets and no legal income?

The answer is that I wouldn't know if they have any assets until after I start chasing them. In this particular case, one of them does though, and still, he looks very ignorant, hence I would expect them to blink.

The question though is not whether they have any assets. The question is whether these people are afraid of any legal implications when they commit their scams. I would think not, because they know that in this way, no one can touch them, and their reputation won't suffer much (unless of course there is a mass of people leaving negative reviews on Google and the like, if they so happen to have a Google page).

People care when money can be recovered from them, if recovery is impossible then any legal threats you make are hollow.

This answers to my question up above then, these people don't care because they don't have any assets, and therefore know that recovery would be impossible.

Themoneyshot

The problem you have is that the "normal" person you refer to would rarely put them in the situation where they would have someone take them to court and have such an order against them. 

By the time it gets that far you are dealing with a person, or persons hiding behind a limited company, that has very little to lose. Legal action is often not the best course of action as you end up throwing more money at it than you've already lost. You can't apply the way you'd react as I'd guess you would never put yourself in that position. 

sourcrates

The civil procedure rules are set out on line for all to see, when you know what your enemies are going to throw at you, you can plan against it, it`s not that difficult to avoid enforcement measures, if you know what you are doing, this is how serial fraudsters get away with it time and again.

This is the price we pay for living in a so called free society, the same culprits would not enjoy the same freedoms in say Russia or China, it would not be tolerated, but the question we must ask ourselves would be, is that how we want to do things, would it be acceptable?

Probably not I would say, we don`t tend to deal with fraudulent tradesmen on this board, mostly debt purchasing companies using legal action to collect bad debts, they tend to obtain the judgement and just sit on it, without enforcement action, they like to play a numbers game where the more people they can frighten into paying by obtaining a judgement the better, without the added cost of enforcement action.

These companies use legal action for their own benefit, much like a fraudulent trader does for theirs, they all play the system one way or another.

astron4

sourcrates said:

The civil procedure rules are set out on line for all to see, when you know what your enemies are going to throw at you, you can plan against it, it`s not that difficult to avoid enforcement measures, if you know what you are doing, this is how serial fraudsters get away with it time and again.

This is the price we pay for living in a so called free society, the same culprits would not enjoy the same freedoms in say Russia or China, it would not be tolerated, but the question we must ask ourselves would be, is that how we want to do things, would it be acceptable?

Probably not I would say, we don`t tend to deal with fraudulent tradesmen on this board, mostly debt purchasing companies using legal action to collect bad debts, they tend to obtain the judgement and just sit on it, without enforcement action, they like to play a numbers game where the more people they can frighten into paying by obtaining a judgement the better, without the added cost of enforcement action.

These companies use legal action for their own benefit, much like a fraudulent trader does for theirs, they all play the system one way or another.

Many thanks for taking the time to write this up sourcrates! I appreciate the thoughts sharing!

pelirocco

Its been my experience  that if my company hasn't been able to get a debtor to pay and has had to go down the court route  we never win . Sadly there are people out there who know how to 'play ' the system and once gotten away with it once , they carry on

DisabledDan

astron4 said:

I've so far brought one person and one company to small claims court and won both cases.

I've done a lot of things thereafter, including an order for questioning that the defendant did not attend, chased with HCEOs, submitted statutory demands etc.

Neither seems to be alarmed by any of these. As a sane person, I would have expected that seeing court action, a normal person would have been alarmed and paid up the owed amount, even more so when the process escalates to HCEOs and bailiffs knocking at your door.

One of the defendants has no assets and works on money under the table, and the other works in the UK but also resides in the EU (travels back and forth).

I even reported one of the defendants to the police as a serial scammer since a few others have reported him as a scammer (including my next door neighbour), to which I've got a box standard reply that they don't have enough data to pursue this etc, or something along these lines.

All of this brings me to the question: Do people normally get alarmed and pay the owed amount upon judicial action? Do they wait until push comes to shove and then pay up? I would expect this of course to be true for tradesmen who live from odd job to odd job.

Personally, if I were a tradesman and knew how this process doesn't work works, I would have done the same if I owed someone money, as I'd know that there is no way for the creditor to get his money back. It's really sad and shows a broken state.

Interesting question, maybe I can make things clearer for you as whilst I have always felt passionately about not owing money, my circumstances meant I had to become realistic about my ability to pay my debts after life changing events.

I think I have about 3 or 4 CCJ's, one of which was escalated to HCEO.  I spoke to National Debtline recently and they say that although they would not advise anyone to do what I have done, it does appear to have worked for me.

If a debtor has no money or assets (which can happen to any of us) it is likely to be a current situation that will hopefully improve in time.  So it is madness to rush into legal action when the debt will last 6 years and 5 months into year 5 you can take the legal action which will give them a CCJ that will itself last for 6 years.   By that time they will have dropped their guard and not be so well prepared and careful.. 

The person not attending is probably one of three things, ignorance because it was served at wrong address, desperation leading to head in the sand or they are a professional and want the CCJ so it is over sooner.

I went into a serious depression and had so many people chasing me that Bankruptcy was probably the best option as I owed too much for a DRO.  This depression flipped me into a state of war, I put four locks, two chains and got some wood to prevent forced entry,   I also put things in my flat that would enable me to defend myself without strength.

I watched all the HCEO programmes on YouTube over and over again, I realised they could not take my car because I am disabled and because it is worth less than £1500 which is less than the cost to tow and store for a week.  The creditor would have to underwrite that and that would be throwing good money after bad..

I realised that the primary goal of an HCEO is their own enrichment, so they want to get you to let them in to work out a solution, when really they want entry so they can threaten to itemise your goods and add hundreds to the debt.  The added amounts are the first debt settled so the creditor does not get paid until fees, that is what one of my creditors told me.

They are basically in the job of threatening the things you care about, including your kids playstation if that is what it takes. It also became apparent that they will say things to threaten you that they have no intention of doing and they exaggerate their powers.  They are not allowed to force entry into a residential property (except for GOV debt like Council Parking etc), only a business address (which is why my address would never appear on company documentation). They are no longer allowed to enter via a window but if you leave one open they may enter, open the back door and say they found it open.  Once they are in and have made a list of goods they can come back into the property in future.

So the obvious answer is to never engage with them, do not answer the door, do not make it easy for them to see if you are home (for example translucent swing bin liner over post box so they can't look in).  My creditor told me that he paid for 9 visits, they had no idea whether I was in because of the layout of my flat and when I saw them try to force entry I got myself a Ring Doorbell.  This is a remarkable device, I am currently making a compilation of undesirables who make a U turn the moment they see they are on video.

One of the people upstairs from me works for "money under the table", but you have to ask who is paying him? His employer told him to do it, he told him to claim Universal Credit and filled out the application online for him.  The employer has several businesses,one of which generates a lot of cash and he is paid from that.  The employer has 7 vehicles which my neighbour drives most days and is not insured, in fact he is an alcoholic who is well over the limit most days.

If you know they reside in the EU you know that it would be expensive to enforce a UK debt over there, it was easier when we were in the EU.

You are right about the Police, they are simply not interested, if you use the word scammer you will immediately be told to report it to inaction fraud online.  They are nothing more than an stats database, I worked with the Police on a case where each scam was over £120k, they were only interested because the media were involved.  I tracked down the individuals, even posed as a victim which enabled me to get enough data to find their address, however, once the media had moved on they did not pursue the matter.

I would not say people do not get alarmed, except perhaps those diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, google DSM-V for the traits, you will recognise them because we have all met such people and some even have a family member who meets the diagnostic criteria.

Before enforcement action was taken I had every intention of paying what I would call the "real" creditors, old Landlord, and a firm of Solicitors I had used. However, once I found out about fractional reserve banking my whole attitude changed towards the loans and credit card debt because not only did the money never exist in the first place but it was paid off when they sold the debt to a debt recovery firm.  This is why our economy is totally straddled with debt. 

I have no problem with the concept, but loans and credit cards are basically a bet covered by a 3% to 5% insurance policy that allows the lender to create money out of iterations of the very same money they have created in their computer. When a debt defaults the 3% is lost, the creditor sells the debt for as low as 5% and is able to lend the same money again as it will not be counted in their liquidity.  This is where I have the problem the debt is gone, they earned loads of interest which is their business and fair enough, but selling the debt at 5% and allowing the full amount to be sought is just wrong.

So for most of the time judicial action is a waste of time because if the person had the means they would have started servicing the debt, in fact if you had got them to agree to pay £1 a month the 6 year limitation would reset each time.  Those you actually take to court are either those who can't pay and will probably see a DRO or other debt solution or even Bankruptcy.  Alternatively they are disingenuous people who are not scared, they may pay for the drugs they consume or the Deliveroo but not you. 

There are many things broken in our Country, personally I would deny the ability for debt to be chased by bailiffs for not commercial debt.

Many people will likely object to my approach to this, but I have found classifications for the different replies.  It used to be the same when people who paid the TV licence always derided those that do not pay, even if they did not watch live TV or use BBC iPlayer. It is a collective acceptance that if we all have to comply with these rules then you should too. The tipping point came when they went after our elderly, the arrival of Netflix and the cost of living crisis brought almost everybody into not being able to afford things.

Based on what you say I am guessing you employed these people as tradesmen, you probably sought a good deal and they were the only people who gave you something affordable.   Something tells me they did not accept credit cards, did not have a visible business reputation and they probably let you down massively.

For my part, most of the debt continues to be sold on and chased despite it going off statute and I think all but one of the CCJ's is past the 6 years.  I now live within my means, which is not very much at all but these are the cards I was dealt, I love having no credit or debt that I have to pay.  The last CCJ will expire in a few months and that will be that. I really enjoy the fact that one of the companies who were sold my smallest credit card debt paid money to go to court and they even tried to get bailiffs according to the paperwork that I only saw years later.  They got nothing and actually threw good money after bad and had obviously not understood the concept of a sunken cost.   

You sound like a decent person, you obviously pay all your debts and would be scared witless by HCEO's knocking at your door, but as you have discovered, there is no security unless you take a security.