Compassionate leave - employee lying

Hoenir

prettyandfluffy said:

As soon as HR and I started to take an interest in his repeated absences he found another job and left.

The situation has to managed carefully. But employees more often than not do walk. Once they realise they are under close scrutiny and their antics will no longer be tolerated. 

Savvy_Sue

I think you need to take a long hard look at what your contracts actually say about time off for compassionate reasons, for family responsibilities, childcare emergencies etc.

A long time ago, a colleague who had not long joined us took several weeks compassionate leave because their adult child had a road traffic accident and ended up in hospital with a serious head injury. They did stay on the ward overnight, because staffing levels didn't prevent their adult child leaving their bed and wandering around, because the patient had no understanding of how badly injured they were. 

This amount of compassionate leave was over and above what our contract allowed for, and after about a month they were told that if they weren't able to return to work, they'd need to take unpaid leave, or get a Fit Note. They weren't entitled to much paid sick leave, as it happens. 

Fortunately they were able to return to work, quite genuinely, and they were an absolutely brilliant colleague: hard-working and committed. The adult child made a full recovery too. 

I suspect that if a similar situation arose today, we'd follow the contract much more closely, and there'd be far less paid compassionate leave, and a very limited amount of paid time off for parental emergencies. 

The problem which then arises is that if they are WFH, how do you know what they are doing? You already know they aren't pulling their weight, and that will be your next challenge. 

But the very idea that someone expects to continue to be paid when they've told the employer they're not available to work - that's got to stop. 

If of course they are only saying after the event "I couldn't do this because Tiny Tim had a crisis" - that also has to stop. 

Grumpy_chap

I suspect the OP cannot retrospectively change what has been done, nor seek retrospective evidence of appointments etc.

The only thing the OP can do, working with HR, is to confirm the company policy for compassionate leave and then arrange a meeting with the individual to set out what the policy is, that they've given over-and-above because of being a valued employee, and that the future will be assessed in line with the policy.  Appropriate evidence of events / activities can be requested going forward as per the compassionate leave policy.

EnPointe

Hoenir said:

Notify the employee that all future time off for caring duties will be unpaid leave. Explain why. 

Tell the employee that the intention is for them to placed on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP). Lack of discernible output. 

Have the meeting minuted and provide a copy to the employee afterwards. 

Do you have access to HR resources?  

Unfortunately  Capability is rearing it;s ugly head and even asa TU rep there;s not a lot that can be done for an employee in this situation. 

spunds like the employer has been remarkably generous with paid  compassionate / special leave here ...  far more genrous  than many massive multinationals known for  good  packages and  even  than the NHS / other Uk Public sector employers

Marcon

eskimalita7 said:

If it is legal to do so, I need to know the time off he has had to date was legitimate. If HR can request retrospective documents and he can produce them I feel I can help him with a PIP. If he can’t prove hospital appointments or a house move then I feel I can’t manage him as I cannot cure a compulsive liar with a PIP.

You have an HR department. Let them decide what they can and can't request, rather than asking random strangers on a public forum who haven't had sight of the employee's contract, any handbook, company policies etc.

eskimalita7

Marcon said:

eskimalita7 said:

If it is legal to do so, I need to know the time off he has had to date was legitimate. If HR can request retrospective documents and he can produce them I feel I can help him with a PIP. If he can’t prove hospital appointments or a house move then I feel I can’t manage him as I cannot cure a compulsive liar with a PIP.

You have an HR department. Let them decide what they can and can't request, rather than asking random strangers on a public forum who haven't had sight of the employee's contract, any handbook, company policies etc.

I will use my HR department. I have been losing sleep over this no matter how much I try to put it to one side over the weekend. The forum has been a helpful outlet. I don’t have access to HR until Monday. I am grateful to everyone who had commented and your comment is a bit unnecessary.

robatwork

Savvy_Sue said:

I think you need to take a long hard look at what your contracts actually say about time off for compassionate reasons, for family responsibilities, childcare emergencies etc.

A long time ago, a colleague who had not long joined us took several weeks compassionate leave because their adult child had a road traffic accident and ended up in hospital with a serious head injury. They did stay on the ward overnight, because staffing levels didn't prevent their adult child leaving their bed and wandering around, because the patient had no understanding of how badly injured they were. 

This amount of compassionate leave was over and above what our contract allowed for, and after about a month they were told that if they weren't able to return to work, they'd need to take unpaid leave, or get a Fit Note. They weren't entitled to much paid sick leave, as it happens. 

A nice story, and obviously a genuine and worthy reason. I have had colleagues who must have had 6 uncles and 3 grandmothers from the amount of compassionate leave for a death in the family they requested. HR (just an undertrained and disinterested manager) didn't question them too deeply so they got away with it. 

Hoenir

eskimalita7 said:

Marcon said:

eskimalita7 said:

If it is legal to do so, I need to know the time off he has had to date was legitimate. If HR can request retrospective documents and he can produce them I feel I can help him with a PIP. If he can’t prove hospital appointments or a house move then I feel I can’t manage him as I cannot cure a compulsive liar with a PIP.

You have an HR department. Let them decide what they can and can't request, rather than asking random strangers on a public forum who haven't had sight of the employee's contract, any handbook, company policies etc.

I will use my HR department. I have been losing sleep over this no matter how much I try to put it to one side over the weekend. The forum has been a helpful outlet. I don’t have access to HR until Monday. I am grateful to everyone who had commented and your comment is a bit unnecessary.

No reason to lose sleep. HR will determine the appropriate course of action. Next time they should be your first port of call. As HR work within the company policy that's set by the executive team/company board. 

SecondRow

eskimalita7 said:

Marcon said:

eskimalita7 said:

If it is legal to do so, I need to know the time off he has had to date was legitimate. If HR can request retrospective documents and he can produce them I feel I can help him with a PIP. If he can’t prove hospital appointments or a house move then I feel I can’t manage him as I cannot cure a compulsive liar with a PIP.

You have an HR department. Let them decide what they can and can't request, rather than asking random strangers on a public forum who haven't had sight of the employee's contract, any handbook, company policies etc.

I will use my HR department. I have been losing sleep over this no matter how much I try to put it to one side over the weekend. The forum has been a helpful outlet. I don’t have access to HR until Monday. I am grateful to everyone who had commented and your comment is a bit unnecessary.

It seems this piece of particularly good advice has irked you. It shouldn’t have, it is precisely what you should be doing. Going further, you may like to consider a challenge to your handling of things thus far, has the extended leave to care for his son been designated a reasonable adjustment as per the Equality Act - if it hasn’t where will you draw the line as there is a compelling argument for whatever has been allowed thus far to be the benchmark for it. In that regard, you seem to be looking for this individual to make up time allowed, why would you do that if you have sanctioned it in the first place, would you ordinarily risk a discrimination claim for these reasons? If you haven’t drawn a line in respect of reasonable adjustments, you will also need to take account of adjusting objectives - why are you managing him to targets that are obviously unachievable in the circumstances and what adjustments do you propose to reflect what’s happening?

Remember, you are perhaps understandably forming a view that he is swinging the lead, you may be right. Equally, you may well be so wide of the mark you’d be shocked. In other words, keep an open mind - you are in need of professional HR support/guidance, as was appropriately pointed out earlier that seems to have offended you.

Jude57

SecondRow said:

eskimalita7 said:

Marcon said:

eskimalita7 said:

If it is legal to do so, I need to know the time off he has had to date was legitimate. If HR can request retrospective documents and he can produce them I feel I can help him with a PIP. If he can’t prove hospital appointments or a house move then I feel I can’t manage him as I cannot cure a compulsive liar with a PIP.

You have an HR department. Let them decide what they can and can't request, rather than asking random strangers on a public forum who haven't had sight of the employee's contract, any handbook, company policies etc.

I will use my HR department. I have been losing sleep over this no matter how much I try to put it to one side over the weekend. The forum has been a helpful outlet. I don’t have access to HR until Monday. I am grateful to everyone who had commented and your comment is a bit unnecessary.

It seems this piece of particularly good advice has irked you. It shouldn’t have, it is precisely what you should be doing. Going further, you may like to consider a challenge to your handling of things thus far, has the extended leave to care for his son been designated a reasonable adjustment as per the Equality Act - if it hasn’t where will you draw the line as there is a compelling argument for whatever has been allowed thus far to be the benchmark for it. In that regard, you seem to be looking for this individual to make up time allowed, why would you do that if you have sanctioned it in the first place, would you ordinarily risk a discrimination claim for these reasons? If you haven’t drawn a line in respect of reasonable adjustments, you will also need to take account of adjusting objectives - why are you managing him to targets that are obviously unachievable in the circumstances and what adjustments do you propose to reflect what’s happening?

Remember, you are perhaps understandably forming a view that he is swinging the lead, you may be right. Equally, you may well be so wide of the mark you’d be shocked. In other words, keep an open mind - you are in need of professional HR support/guidance, as was appropriately pointed out earlier that seems to have offended you.

Could you link to which part of the Equality Act applies to parents caring for disabled children as a 'reasonable adjustment'? The only mention of children I can find in the Act refers to those in an education or care setting and relates to the provision of education or care. It would seem to be an unreasonable adjustment for employers to have to give more paid leave to the parent of a child whose disability is well managed than to a parent with a child who doesn't meet the definition of disability set out in the Act, but who has repeated illness, say, repeated ear or chest infections. It would be helpful to know what you're relying on here, so that others could benefit.