Can any permitted route be used for an alternate train journey?

maz_hartley

My husbands work course is cancelled but he has the train tickets which won’t be cancelled. He’s off fri/sat and is thinking he could use the tickets for a different destination as they say any route permitted, but I’m not convinced. His tickets are for Macclesfield- Loughborough anytime return, any route permitted. He’s thinking he could travel Macclesfield- Birmingham return instead (different route). I can’t find much info on any route permitted to clarify permitted routes. Anyone know?

KeithP

That ticket can be used on any permitted route between Macclesfield and Loughborough.

To find out if Birmingham New Street is on a permitted route between those stations, stick Macclesfield and Loughborough into a rail journey planner and use a via point of Birmingham New Street.
That will show that Birmingham New Street is indeed on a permitted route between Macclesfield and Loughborough so the tickets you mention can be used for a journey between Macclesfield and Birmingham New Street.
(if it were not possible to buy a ticket, that would confirm that it isn't a permitted route).

The tickets may not open the barriers at BNS, that won't be a problem - just ask.

la531983

KeithP said:

That ticket can be used on any permitted route between Macclesfield and Loughborough.

To find out if Birmingham New Street is on a permitted route between those stations, stick Macclesfield and Loughborough into a rail journey planner and use a via point of Birmingham New Street.
That will show that Birmingham New Street is indeed on a permitted route between Macclesfield and Loughborough so the tickets you mention can be used for a journey between Macclesfield and Birmingham New Street.
(if it were not possible to buy a ticket, that would confirm that it isn't a permitted route).

The tickets may not open the barriers at BNS, that won't be a problem - just ask.

He isn't going to Barnes though 😉

400ixl

The other thing to consider is whether the ticket allows breaking the journey in both directions.

daveyjp

Anytime returns allow break of journey on outward and return.

KeithP

400ixl said:

The other thing to consider is whether the ticket allows breaking the journey in both directions.

Already considered.  
It does - as @daveyjp points out.

MilesT6060842

To be absolutely certain it is a bit complex, as you need to consult the official routing manual (available online, needs an internet search, and there is an online routing tool as well), to know what are considered acceptable routes for the journey pair.  (nationalrail website will give you a indication but not always all the possibilities that would be allowed). 

The official manuals are complex to navigate/understand, for a logically minded person on the first time, maybe a hour to work it out (not easy to describe in a few lines on social media)--search for "how to use the national rail routing manuals" to get some instructions.

Acceptable is not the same as "permitted" for "Any route permitted", or indeed when a specific route is noted (via xxx is the usual wording) or a specific train operating company (easier to understand, can only use that company's trains). 

Acceptable includes concepts like "no backtracking", i.e. you need to progress in the same direction and not need to double back to complete the journey, even considering express and stoppers on the same line, and no deviation i.e. no running up a branch line and back again to the line of your journey, and may in some cases restrict jumping between lines in a break of journey even if both are "permitted" although it is unlikely this would be detected with paper tickets if may be detectable with e-tickets.

Look up the ticket type on the nationalrail website to determine if break of journey is allowed on outbound/single, and return, it will be buried in T&C, search for "break".  As a incomplete guide to breaks:

• Advances:  Never (named train, origin and destination).  If you want to break your journey with advance tickets, you need multiple tickets like split ticketing. 
  Maybe permissible if your original train is disrupted but will need explaining when you are exiting not at your ticketed destination.
• Anytime Return/Anytime Single/Day Return: Usually permitted on both outward and return, unless there is an endorsement/ticket code applied
• Off peak, super off peak single/return/day return (and promotional fares that are actually ticketed as off peak):  Usually on the return leg only (watch out if you have been ticketed as two singles to make a return trip for this one) .  Check the ticket code printed on the ticket online and endorsements.
  

Eurostar and HS1 apply their own rules.

KeithP

And what is your conclusion @MilesT6060842 on the specific journey mentioned in the opening post?

Do you really think that @maz_hartley, or any other typical rail traveller is going to go to the trouble of even looking for the Routing Guide?

The opening dialogue on the Routing Guide webpages does say...

If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of the Journey Planner at  www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.

MilesT6060842

KeithP said:

And what is your conclusion @MilesT6060842 on the specific journey mentioned in the opening post?

Do you really think that @maz_hartley, or any other typical rail traveller is going to go to the trouble of even looking for the Routing Guide?

The opening dialogue on the Routing Guide webpages does say...

If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of the Journey Planner at  www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.

Thanks for the snark, not.

Other people had already covered the basics with the answer likely being yes in the requested case, I didn't see the need to repeat that, instead I signposted a way to get an alternative view, and did say it was complex.

There will be some edge cases where I think NR website would indicate ticket would not be valid, when in fact the true answer is the ticket would be valid;  and also the national rail website might say not valid on a selected day because of e.g. engineering works leading to the website showing a diversionary route as the optimum route, when if the passenger could tolerate replacement bus service then the ticket would be valid as long as the replacement bus was taken.

I can't think of a scenario where the NR website would indicate ticket was valid when the ticket was not valid, for routing reasons.

(I have seen NR website "hide" potential route options because of engineering, unless you knew enough about the route and the website to put in a "via" to force the the route that has engineering and replacement bus;  the developer do tinker with the what is shown on the results page, needing to balance simplicity which encourages people to buy vs. full accuracy of all the options).

This discussion is part of the reason why ticket offices should be kept wherever viable, and a better online call centre would also be helpful since it's not likely that a "ticket validity checker" would be made available to the public (although the TOC certainly would have that capability as part of e-ticket checking).

400ixl

daveyjp said:

Anytime returns allow break of journey on outward and return.

No it doesn't always.

I have had some that do and some that don't. The last one I had said cannot journey can be broken on the outward journey, but not on the return journey. It was an anytime open return but it an advanced one, the normal one does allow in both directions though.

So don't assume.

thelawnet

400ixl said:

daveyjp said:

Anytime returns allow break of journey on outward and return.

No it doesn't always.

I have had some that do and some that don't. The last one I had said cannot journey can be broken on the outward journey, but not on the return journey. It was an anytime open return but it an advanced one, the normal one does allow in both directions though.

So don't assume.

You what? There is no such thing as an 'advanced' (meaning 'complicated') ticket on the UK railways.
This is commonly an illiteracy for an 'Advance' (meaning purchased ahead of time).

Advance tickets are ONLY sold on a single basis, although you can buy two at the same time to cover a return journey.

An Advance ticket is only valid for a specific train (and in some cases connecting non-reserved trains).

You can NEVER do:
 * break of journey (for example holding an Advance ticket from Paddington to Bath and leaving the station at Reading for a couple of hours before restarting your journey)
* starting short (for example boarding your Paddington to Bath train at Reading instead of Paddington)
* finishing short (for example getting off your Paddington to Bath rain at Didcot)

 An 'anytime' ticket refers to a flexible ticket valid at any time of day.

There are different types of anytime ticket:
 * Anytime Day Single
* Anytime Day Return
* Anytime Day Travelcard
* Anytime Single
* Anytime Return

 These are distinguished from 'off-peak' tickets (and variations on off-peak such as 'super off peak'), which are also flexible and usually allow break of journey (but not always) in that

 * they ALWAYS allow break of journey unlimited times
* they are valid at any time of day


The validity of each is

* Anytime Day Single - valid for one journey between the start and end points of the ticket any time between midnight on day 1 to 04:29 on day 2, with unlimited breaks of journey, starting and stopping, etc.
* Anytime Day Return - valid on the same basis as Anytime Day Single but there and back
* Anytime Day Travelcard - same as Day Return but also with unlimited travel within the London zones 1-6 during the period of validity
* Anytime Single - valid from 00:00 on day 1 to 04:29 on day 3, again with unlimited breaks of journey
* Anytime Return - valid from 00:00 on day 1 to 04:29 on day 6 for the outbound journey, and till 04:29 on the same day of the following month for the return journey

 Note that for return tickets the outbound ticket ceases to become valid as soon as the return journey is started.