Pension Trustees being very very unhelpful

Pat38493

Marcon said:

foxy_squirrel said:

Thank you for all your helpful comments. We were well aware that trustees would deal with these funds outside of the estate, however, why ask for details of the beneficiaries, ie her next of kin, if there is already an expression of wish form completed that has someone elses details on it that they are going to choose over ourselves? 

Because an EOW form on its own is not enough (always assuming there is one) - carrying out a reasonable amount of due diligence is still required.

foxy_squirrel said:

Seems silly to me, just write to us and say your sisters wishes were this, this is what we are doing. We just have to accept that we may never know who it may be. Have a great evening everyone.

That definitely is a breach of data protection if they name the recipients.

Your post is headed 'trustees being very very unhelpful' and I can quite understand why it looks that way to you - but in many respects their hands are tied and they are simply doing what they have to do in the way it has to be done.

I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but does that mean that there is no remedy with pensions if you feel that the decision of the trustees might not be justifiable?  

It seems like if it's impossible to know who the pension was awarded to, it's then impossible to know whether it should be challenged (maybe there is no way to challenge it and trustees are gods in this respect)?

Silvertabby

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

foxy_squirrel said:

Thank you for all your helpful comments. We were well aware that trustees would deal with these funds outside of the estate, however, why ask for details of the beneficiaries, ie her next of kin, if there is already an expression of wish form completed that has someone elses details on it that they are going to choose over ourselves? 

Because an EOW form on its own is not enough (always assuming there is one) - carrying out a reasonable amount of due diligence is still required.

foxy_squirrel said:

Seems silly to me, just write to us and say your sisters wishes were this, this is what we are doing. We just have to accept that we may never know who it may be. Have a great evening everyone.

That definitely is a breach of data protection if they name the recipients.

Your post is headed 'trustees being very very unhelpful' and I can quite understand why it looks that way to you - but in many respects their hands are tied and they are simply doing what they have to do in the way it has to be done.

I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but does that mean that there is no remedy with pensions if you feel that the decision of the trustees might not be justifiable?  

It seems like if it's impossible to know who the pension was awarded to, it's then impossible to know whether it should be challenged (maybe there is no way to challenge it and trustees are gods in this respect)?

Yes, they are - within the rules.  Otherwise the pension funds couldn't be deemed to be 'in trust' and so would be the property of the estate / subject to probate / be swept up into any IHT calculation / used to pay any debts etc instead of being paid to the nominated beneficiary.

As has already been mentioned, it does sound like the trustees have carried out their due diligence before awarding payment.  They will have asked for all your details in case your sister had any dependants, usually children, which would almost certainly have resulted in a different decision.

Yes, you can lodge a complaint - but that would only rule on the trustees final decision and, if justified, still wouldn't reveal to you the name of the beneficiary. 
 

Albermarle

Yes, you can lodge a complaint - but that would only rule on the trustees final decision and, if justified, still wouldn't reveal to you the name of the beneficiary. 
 

So effectively, it will probably always remain a mystery to the OP's family who the beneficiary is ?

Silvertabby

Albermarle said:

Yes, you can lodge a complaint - but that would only rule on the trustees final decision and, if justified, still wouldn't reveal to you the name of the beneficiary. 
 

So effectively, it will probably always remain a mystery to the OP's family who the beneficiary is ?

Yes, unless the beneficiary is already known to them and mentions receiving this money.

My bet is still on a charity.  

Pat38493

Silvertabby said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

foxy_squirrel said:

Thank you for all your helpful comments. We were well aware that trustees would deal with these funds outside of the estate, however, why ask for details of the beneficiaries, ie her next of kin, if there is already an expression of wish form completed that has someone elses details on it that they are going to choose over ourselves? 

Because an EOW form on its own is not enough (always assuming there is one) - carrying out a reasonable amount of due diligence is still required.

foxy_squirrel said:

Seems silly to me, just write to us and say your sisters wishes were this, this is what we are doing. We just have to accept that we may never know who it may be. Have a great evening everyone.

That definitely is a breach of data protection if they name the recipients.

Your post is headed 'trustees being very very unhelpful' and I can quite understand why it looks that way to you - but in many respects their hands are tied and they are simply doing what they have to do in the way it has to be done.

I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but does that mean that there is no remedy with pensions if you feel that the decision of the trustees might not be justifiable?  

It seems like if it's impossible to know who the pension was awarded to, it's then impossible to know whether it should be challenged (maybe there is no way to challenge it and trustees are gods in this respect)?

Yes, they are - within the rules.  Otherwise the pension funds couldn't be deemed to be 'in trust' and so would be the property of the estate / subject to probate / be swept up into any IHT calculation / used to pay any debts etc instead of being paid to the nominated beneficiary.

As has already been mentioned, it does sound like the trustees have carried out their due diligence before awarding payment.  They will have asked for all your details in case your sister had any dependants, usually children, which would almost certainly have resulted in a different decision.

Yes, you can lodge a complaint - but that would only rule on the trustees final decision and, if justified, still wouldn't reveal to you the name of the beneficiary. 
 

That's an interesting situation then because in most cases with a pension, the trustees won't be personally appointed "trusted people" of the investor as such - they are appointed by an organization.   If the trustees decided to overrule (or go with) the nomination forms, partly based on a criteria that would normally be illegal (discrimination or suchlike), there is no way anyone would ever find this out.  Are the trustees obliged to document the reasons for their decisions internally and does anyone ever audit this?

MarkCarnage

As already mentioned, the Trustees have discretion to act provided it is within the Scheme Rules, or to make an interpretation of these if it isn't wholly clear. They will usually take professional advice if there is ambiguity. 

There is a process for appealing against decisions made either by the Administrator or the Trustees (IDRP) which has two stages. Many are resolved at stage 1, but if the complainant isn't satisfied it would go to Stage 2. In most cases, there is scope to take it to the Pensions Ombudsman if still not satisfied...however in all stages it will focus on whether the Trustees correctly applied the rules, or a reasonable interpretation of them based on the facts, including any expression of wish which is held. 

Silvertabby

Pat38493 said:

Silvertabby said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

foxy_squirrel said:

Thank you for all your helpful comments. We were well aware that trustees would deal with these funds outside of the estate, however, why ask for details of the beneficiaries, ie her next of kin, if there is already an expression of wish form completed that has someone elses details on it that they are going to choose over ourselves? 

Because an EOW form on its own is not enough (always assuming there is one) - carrying out a reasonable amount of due diligence is still required.

foxy_squirrel said:

Seems silly to me, just write to us and say your sisters wishes were this, this is what we are doing. We just have to accept that we may never know who it may be. Have a great evening everyone.

That definitely is a breach of data protection if they name the recipients.

Your post is headed 'trustees being very very unhelpful' and I can quite understand why it looks that way to you - but in many respects their hands are tied and they are simply doing what they have to do in the way it has to be done.

I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but does that mean that there is no remedy with pensions if you feel that the decision of the trustees might not be justifiable?  

It seems like if it's impossible to know who the pension was awarded to, it's then impossible to know whether it should be challenged (maybe there is no way to challenge it and trustees are gods in this respect)?

Yes, they are - within the rules.  Otherwise the pension funds couldn't be deemed to be 'in trust' and so would be the property of the estate / subject to probate / be swept up into any IHT calculation / used to pay any debts etc instead of being paid to the nominated beneficiary.

As has already been mentioned, it does sound like the trustees have carried out their due diligence before awarding payment.  They will have asked for all your details in case your sister had any dependants, usually children, which would almost certainly have resulted in a different decision.

Yes, you can lodge a complaint - but that would only rule on the trustees final decision and, if justified, still wouldn't reveal to you the name of the beneficiary. 
 

That's an interesting situation then because in most cases with a pension, the trustees won't be personally appointed "trusted people" of the investor as such - they are appointed by an organization.   If the trustees decided to overrule (or go with) the nomination forms, partly based on a criteria that would normally be illegal (discrimination or suchlike), there is no way anyone would ever find this out.  Are the trustees obliged to document the reasons for their decisions internally and does anyone ever audit this?

On the rare occasions that we (LGPS) had to refer a payment decision to the Trustees  we would be notified of the reason(s) behind their ruling.  But this information couldn't be divulged to non-beneficiaries for data protection reasons.

There were a couple of cases in which the expressions of wish forms had been completed many years earlier, but the fund members had gone on to marry/have a family with someone else.  The trustees ruled that the lump sum death benefit be paid to the recipient of the spouse's pension (different eligibility rules).

Then there were the cases of fund members who died without having completed a nomination form.....No need to refer to the trustees when there was a clear beneficiary, ie spouse/child/parent, but you'd be amazed at how complicated some people's lives are.

Pat38493

MarkCarnage said:

As already mentioned, the Trustees have discretion to act provided it is within the Scheme Rules, or to make an interpretation of these if it isn't wholly clear. They will usually take professional advice if there is ambiguity. 

There is a process for appealing against decisions made either by the Administrator or the Trustees (IDRP) which has two stages. Many are resolved at stage 1, but if the complainant isn't satisfied it would go to Stage 2. In most cases, there is scope to take it to the Pensions Ombudsman if still not satisfied...however in all stages it will focus on whether the Trustees correctly applied the rules, or a reasonable interpretation of them based on the facts, including any expression of wish which is held. 

Does this process cost money?  If not, I guess if there is a belief that the money might have been given to the “wrong’ person, there would be no harm in following this process - at the least it would provide some reassurance that due process was followed.

As an aside, does this also apply to things that are within the estate?  E.g. if I left £100K to a random stranger in my will, would the executor be forbidden from revealing the identity of that person on GDPR grounds?

SVaz

Wills are public knowledge after probate. 

MarkCarnage

Does this process cost money?  If not, I guess if there is a belief that the money might have been given to the “wrong’ person, there would be no harm in following this process - at the least it would provide some reassurance that due process was followed.

The process itself doesn't cost money to the person raising it, unless they choose to get a lawyer involved, and there should be no need for that. However, the Trustees still won't divulge the detail of the beneficiary in most cases I would think. 
In the Schemes where I am a Trustee there are quite a number of cases each year where a decision on beneficiary goes to a sub Committee of the Trustee Board, (which I don't sit on). There is usually quite a lengthy file of supporting evidence for any decision. Below a certain amount, this is delegated to an internal admin function to make a decision. Very  rarely is there a dispute, it's usually just ensuring that the rules align with the wishes of the representatives of the deceased member. 
I can't recall an IDRP relating to this....most of them relate to admin issues, or delays in transfer values.