Capita workplace pension - huge loss

loveprada

Bostonerimus1 said:

loveprada said:

dunstonh said:

 Question is where and who can I trust if I use a IFA.

To be honest, you are not in IFA territory.     I suspect the vast majority would not offer their services to you.

 I did use one a couple of years ago and the guy is either an idiot or a spiv, as I lost 30k from the very first moment, it was losing money at the rate of say at least £1k a week and he did !!!!!! all to stem the flow.

Why would you expect an adviser to make changes?      The only negative period close to a couple of years ago was Spring 2020 when coronavirus lockdowns hit.  Markets fell sharply over a period of one month.  By late summer of that year, they were higher again.          If they adviser had pulled you out whilst it was falling, you would have missed out on the recovery and ended up with a worse outcome.      The adviser sensibly did nothing as would be expected.    

However, your figures do not add up.  Losing £30k from the very first moment would require a  fund value of around £100k+.   £1k a week losses for four weeks would not match the way the falls occured in Spring 2020.

 I've raised a complaint with the FSA Ombudsman and ditched him. Beggars belief that he was recommended to me personally by someone who has been invested with him for 25 years. Things aren't going well for me.

The Food Standards Agency is not an Ombudsman    Perhaps you meant the FOS.  However, the FOS cannot review a complaint until you have complained to the firm and they have responded and if you still disagree with it.     However, the loss period in 2020 recovered within 6 months.  So, complaining now about a loss in 2020 that recovered before the end of 2020 seems utterly pointless.    

have you considered that the reason things are not going well for you is you?   i.e. your lack of knowledge and understanding?    Not knowing and understanding things is quite normal but if it is causing you to make bad decisions or act in a way that is not healthy, then the best thing to do is learn about it and begin to understand.

At the moment, you are making accusations of wrongdoing but there appears to be none.   If you understood it more, then you would come to realise that and knowledge leads to better decision making.

Sorry for the wrong acronyms, I did mean the Financial Services Ombudsman. Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. Yes it was my naivety that led me down this path. If you say that no IFA would have taken me on then this guy who did must have had a rogue mentality. Can you guide as to what I should be reading for a better understanding of what is going on? Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Taking “thought” largely out of my investing when I was working saved me from some dubious decisions. I just kept a roughly 60% equity and 40% bond allocation and rebalanced through the ups and downs of the markets. So if you are looking at times scales of decades…and even people quite close to retirement will have decades of investing ahead of them…and have lost money in bonds so that your asset allocation has deviated from your ideal you should be selling equities and buying bonds. One nice thing about the funds like Vanguard Lifestrategy series is they automatically rebalance. 

You make it sound easy but how do I get to the stage where I fully understand how things work, even understanding the jargon? I didn't even know that bonds were traded after they are initially sold. Even now I dont understand why anyone would overpay for bonds. Someone took the trouble to explain but I think from what I've heard it seems to be a risky area for very little return.

QrizB

loveprada said:

Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. ... Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Why don't you start a new thread (to avoid confusion in this one) where you tell us exactly how your SIPP was initially invested and on what date, how it's invested today, and ask for opinions?

There have been several recent threads like this on the forum recently and they've had pretty good engagement.

Pat38493

loveprada said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

loveprada said:

dunstonh said:

 Question is where and who can I trust if I use a IFA.

To be honest, you are not in IFA territory.     I suspect the vast majority would not offer their services to you.

 I did use one a couple of years ago and the guy is either an idiot or a spiv, as I lost 30k from the very first moment, it was losing money at the rate of say at least £1k a week and he did !!!!!! all to stem the flow.

Why would you expect an adviser to make changes?      The only negative period close to a couple of years ago was Spring 2020 when coronavirus lockdowns hit.  Markets fell sharply over a period of one month.  By late summer of that year, they were higher again.          If they adviser had pulled you out whilst it was falling, you would have missed out on the recovery and ended up with a worse outcome.      The adviser sensibly did nothing as would be expected.    

However, your figures do not add up.  Losing £30k from the very first moment would require a  fund value of around £100k+.   £1k a week losses for four weeks would not match the way the falls occured in Spring 2020.

 I've raised a complaint with the FSA Ombudsman and ditched him. Beggars belief that he was recommended to me personally by someone who has been invested with him for 25 years. Things aren't going well for me.

The Food Standards Agency is not an Ombudsman    Perhaps you meant the FOS.  However, the FOS cannot review a complaint until you have complained to the firm and they have responded and if you still disagree with it.     However, the loss period in 2020 recovered within 6 months.  So, complaining now about a loss in 2020 that recovered before the end of 2020 seems utterly pointless.    

have you considered that the reason things are not going well for you is you?   i.e. your lack of knowledge and understanding?    Not knowing and understanding things is quite normal but if it is causing you to make bad decisions or act in a way that is not healthy, then the best thing to do is learn about it and begin to understand.

At the moment, you are making accusations of wrongdoing but there appears to be none.   If you understood it more, then you would come to realise that and knowledge leads to better decision making.

Sorry for the wrong acronyms, I did mean the Financial Services Ombudsman. Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. Yes it was my naivety that led me down this path. If you say that no IFA would have taken me on then this guy who did must have had a rogue mentality. Can you guide as to what I should be reading for a better understanding of what is going on? Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Taking “thought” largely out of my investing when I was working saved me from some dubious decisions. I just kept a roughly 60% equity and 40% bond allocation and rebalanced through the ups and downs of the markets. So if you are looking at times scales of decades…and even people quite close to retirement will have decades of investing ahead of them…and have lost money in bonds so that your asset allocation has deviated from your ideal you should be selling equities and buying bonds. One nice thing about the funds like Vanguard Lifestrategy series is they automatically rebalance. 

You make it sound easy but how do I get to the stage where I fully understand how things work, even understanding the jargon? I didn't even know that bonds were traded after they are initially sold. Even now I dont understand why anyone would overpay for bonds. Someone took the trouble to explain but I think from what I've heard it seems to be a risky area for very little return.

This is not surprising as it took me a long time after starting to read this board to figure this out as well - the general assumption is that if you are in a bond fund, it's almost like a kind of guaranteed return like a bank account.  However this isn't the case, as we saw in 2022.  

On the other hand if you actually purchase the bonds or gilts directly instead of with a fund that trades in them, then you get the return "guaranteed" but it's quite complicated to figure even that out because generally you can't buy them directly from the issuer (at least that's what I understood) and there are other complications.

I guess confidence in bonds by the less knowledgeable of us took a big knock recently so a lot of people are now putting more money into things like money market funds (which ironically probably use gilts to deliver the return anyway).  

loveprada

Pat38493 said:

loveprada said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

loveprada said:

dunstonh said:

 Question is where and who can I trust if I use a IFA.

To be honest, you are not in IFA territory.     I suspect the vast majority would not offer their services to you.

 I did use one a couple of years ago and the guy is either an idiot or a spiv, as I lost 30k from the very first moment, it was losing money at the rate of say at least £1k a week and he did !!!!!! all to stem the flow.

Why would you expect an adviser to make changes?      The only negative period close to a couple of years ago was Spring 2020 when coronavirus lockdowns hit.  Markets fell sharply over a period of one month.  By late summer of that year, they were higher again.          If they adviser had pulled you out whilst it was falling, you would have missed out on the recovery and ended up with a worse outcome.      The adviser sensibly did nothing as would be expected.    

However, your figures do not add up.  Losing £30k from the very first moment would require a  fund value of around £100k+.   £1k a week losses for four weeks would not match the way the falls occured in Spring 2020.

 I've raised a complaint with the FSA Ombudsman and ditched him. Beggars belief that he was recommended to me personally by someone who has been invested with him for 25 years. Things aren't going well for me.

The Food Standards Agency is not an Ombudsman    Perhaps you meant the FOS.  However, the FOS cannot review a complaint until you have complained to the firm and they have responded and if you still disagree with it.     However, the loss period in 2020 recovered within 6 months.  So, complaining now about a loss in 2020 that recovered before the end of 2020 seems utterly pointless.    

have you considered that the reason things are not going well for you is you?   i.e. your lack of knowledge and understanding?    Not knowing and understanding things is quite normal but if it is causing you to make bad decisions or act in a way that is not healthy, then the best thing to do is learn about it and begin to understand.

At the moment, you are making accusations of wrongdoing but there appears to be none.   If you understood it more, then you would come to realise that and knowledge leads to better decision making.

Sorry for the wrong acronyms, I did mean the Financial Services Ombudsman. Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. Yes it was my naivety that led me down this path. If you say that no IFA would have taken me on then this guy who did must have had a rogue mentality. Can you guide as to what I should be reading for a better understanding of what is going on? Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Taking “thought” largely out of my investing when I was working saved me from some dubious decisions. I just kept a roughly 60% equity and 40% bond allocation and rebalanced through the ups and downs of the markets. So if you are looking at times scales of decades…and even people quite close to retirement will have decades of investing ahead of them…and have lost money in bonds so that your asset allocation has deviated from your ideal you should be selling equities and buying bonds. One nice thing about the funds like Vanguard Lifestrategy series is they automatically rebalance. 

You make it sound easy but how do I get to the stage where I fully understand how things work, even understanding the jargon? I didn't even know that bonds were traded after they are initially sold. Even now I dont understand why anyone would overpay for bonds. Someone took the trouble to explain but I think from what I've heard it seems to be a risky area for very little return.

This is not surprising as it took me a long time after starting to read this board to figure this out as well - the general assumption is that if you are in a bond fund, it's almost like a kind of guaranteed return like a bank account.  However this isn't the case, as we saw in 2022.  

On the other hand if you actually purchase the bonds or gilts directly instead of with a fund that trades in them, then you get the return "guaranteed" but it's quite complicated to figure even that out because generally you can't buy them directly from the issuer (at least that's what I understood) and there are other complications.

I guess confidence in bonds by the less knowledgeable of us took a big knock recently so a lot of people are now putting more money into things like money market funds (which ironically probably use gilts to deliver the return anyway).  

That makes so much sense - you are right and I really dont understand the appeal of bonds. The only people who would do well are those who have millions, they know what they're doing and are in it for a quick gain, but then someone else inevitably loses.  

loveprada

QrizB said:

loveprada said:

Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. ... Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Why don't you start a new thread (to avoid confusion in this one) where you tell us exactly how your SIPP was initially invested and on what date, how it's invested today, and ask for opinions?

There have been several recent threads like this on the forum recently and they've had pretty good engagement.

QrizB said:

loveprada said:

Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. ... Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Why don't you start a new thread (to avoid confusion in this one) where you tell us exactly how your SIPP was initially invested and on what date, how it's invested today, and ask for opinions?

There have been several recent threads like this on the forum recently and they've had pretty good engagement.

Thanks, you have no idea how miserable I am about this and I really dont know which way to turn. I have a telephone appointment with Fidelity tomorrow. 

Bostonerimus1

Pat38493 said:

loveprada said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

loveprada said:

dunstonh said:

 Question is where and who can I trust if I use a IFA.

To be honest, you are not in IFA territory.     I suspect the vast majority would not offer their services to you.

 I did use one a couple of years ago and the guy is either an idiot or a spiv, as I lost 30k from the very first moment, it was losing money at the rate of say at least £1k a week and he did !!!!!! all to stem the flow.

Why would you expect an adviser to make changes?      The only negative period close to a couple of years ago was Spring 2020 when coronavirus lockdowns hit.  Markets fell sharply over a period of one month.  By late summer of that year, they were higher again.          If they adviser had pulled you out whilst it was falling, you would have missed out on the recovery and ended up with a worse outcome.      The adviser sensibly did nothing as would be expected.    

However, your figures do not add up.  Losing £30k from the very first moment would require a  fund value of around £100k+.   £1k a week losses for four weeks would not match the way the falls occured in Spring 2020.

 I've raised a complaint with the FSA Ombudsman and ditched him. Beggars belief that he was recommended to me personally by someone who has been invested with him for 25 years. Things aren't going well for me.

The Food Standards Agency is not an Ombudsman    Perhaps you meant the FOS.  However, the FOS cannot review a complaint until you have complained to the firm and they have responded and if you still disagree with it.     However, the loss period in 2020 recovered within 6 months.  So, complaining now about a loss in 2020 that recovered before the end of 2020 seems utterly pointless.    

have you considered that the reason things are not going well for you is you?   i.e. your lack of knowledge and understanding?    Not knowing and understanding things is quite normal but if it is causing you to make bad decisions or act in a way that is not healthy, then the best thing to do is learn about it and begin to understand.

At the moment, you are making accusations of wrongdoing but there appears to be none.   If you understood it more, then you would come to realise that and knowledge leads to better decision making.

Sorry for the wrong acronyms, I did mean the Financial Services Ombudsman. Yes I did lose £30k between November 21 to around Summer 22. It has improved slightly at least as my current losses are £23k which is still bad, yes there was over £100k invested. Yes it was my naivety that led me down this path. If you say that no IFA would have taken me on then this guy who did must have had a rogue mentality. Can you guide as to what I should be reading for a better understanding of what is going on? Also would you say the funds I'm in at the moment are probably not going to rise again? Maybe they are exposed to the same bond issues?

Taking “thought” largely out of my investing when I was working saved me from some dubious decisions. I just kept a roughly 60% equity and 40% bond allocation and rebalanced through the ups and downs of the markets. So if you are looking at times scales of decades…and even people quite close to retirement will have decades of investing ahead of them…and have lost money in bonds so that your asset allocation has deviated from your ideal you should be selling equities and buying bonds. One nice thing about the funds like Vanguard Lifestrategy series is they automatically rebalance. 

You make it sound easy but how do I get to the stage where I fully understand how things work, even understanding the jargon? I didn't even know that bonds were traded after they are initially sold. Even now I dont understand why anyone would overpay for bonds. Someone took the trouble to explain but I think from what I've heard it seems to be a risky area for very little return.

This is not surprising as it took me a long time after starting to read this board to figure this out as well - the general assumption is that if you are in a bond fund, it's almost like a kind of guaranteed return like a bank account.  However this isn't the case, as we saw in 2022.  

On the other hand if you actually purchase the bonds or gilts directly instead of with a fund that trades in them, then you get the return "guaranteed" but it's quite complicated to figure even that out because generally you can't buy them directly from the issuer (at least that's what I understood) and there are other complications.

I guess confidence in bonds by the less knowledgeable of us took a big knock recently so a lot of people are now putting more money into things like money market funds (which ironically probably use gilts to deliver the return anyway).  

Bonds are generally thought of as being less volatile than equities, but sometimes that’s not the case. If you hold an individual bond to term you’ll get the principal back along with the interest. It’s not as easy with bond funds, but if you hold those for timescales equal to the average duration things will also start to even themselves out as you get more interest from recent bonds to offset the drop in value of older ones. This is where having a long term strategic focus is vital rather than reacting to short term variations. Rebalancing is a tactic that supports you strategic allocation and goals.

Once you learn the jargon it really is very simple and you don’t need a complicated portfolio to do it. In fact it’s better to keep things cheap and simple with just a few trackers or a multi-asset fund.

thriftytracey

My Royal London drawdown pension has lost £3500 in three weeks.  I've already reduced drawdown to 50% of what I used to draw.  

It's all very depressing.  A few months ago it was just about staying the same value despite drawdown.  

Linton

thriftytracey said:

My Royal London drawdown pension has lost £3500 in three weeks.  I've already reduced drawdown to 50% of what I used to draw.  

It's all very depressing.  A few months ago it was just about staying the same value despite drawdown.  

£3500 down out of how much?  £3500 out of £50K is possibly of some concern.  £3500 out of £500K is just noise.

How much are you withdrawing?  50% could be a major hit ;eaving you in poverty, and possibly an over-reaction.  On the opther hand it could be marginal compared with your other income.

Are you invested in appropriate funds for the level of drawdown? 

Bostonerimus1

Linton said:

thriftytracey said:

My Royal London drawdown pension has lost £3500 in three weeks.  I've already reduced drawdown to 50% of what I used to draw.  

It's all very depressing.  A few months ago it was just about staying the same value despite drawdown.  

£3500 down out of how much?  £3500 out of £50K is possibly of some concern.  £3500 out of £500K is just noise.

How much are you withdrawing?  50% could be a major hit ;eaving you in poverty, and possibly an over-reaction.  On the opther hand it could be marginal compared with your other income.

Are you invested in appropriate funds for the level of drawdown? 

If people are drawing down from Gilts they are selling at a low point and so crystalizing their losses. So in drawdown it's good to have asset classes separated out so you can choose where to draw income. Multi-asset funds aren't ideal for drawdown as you can't choose the asset class you are selling. 

artyboy

Bostonerimus1 said:

Linton said:

thriftytracey said:

My Royal London drawdown pension has lost £3500 in three weeks.  I've already reduced drawdown to 50% of what I used to draw.  

It's all very depressing.  A few months ago it was just about staying the same value despite drawdown.  

£3500 down out of how much?  £3500 out of £50K is possibly of some concern.  £3500 out of £500K is just noise.

How much are you withdrawing?  50% could be a major hit ;eaving you in poverty, and possibly an over-reaction.  On the opther hand it could be marginal compared with your other income.

Are you invested in appropriate funds for the level of drawdown? 

If people are drawing down from Gilts they are selling at a low point and so crystalizing their losses. So in drawdown it's good to have asset classes separated out so you can choose where to draw income. Multi-asset funds aren't ideal for drawdown as you can't choose the asset class you are selling. 

I'd love to know if that was actually true though, versus gilts just having been corrected down to more realistic levels, after their abnormal growth over the last 15ish years...

There have been a couple of threads recently on this subject, and at the risk of an over simplified summary, it seemed as though no one was suggesting there would be a major bounce back from this point, more a case of 'normal returns, normal volatility'.

in which case, it's not like selling is necessarily a bad thing if you find yourself in a situation where you held bonds you never really wanted in the first place...