Claiming Pension while disputing advice

FIREDreamer

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

This doesnt make sense. They would not have been allowed or able to pay out cash from a pension scheme to a member who was presumably in their 30’s in the 1980’s/1990’s.

Are you sure you are not getting confused with a redundancy payment or something?

How much was the payment?

How much was your deferred pension on leaving?

Marcon

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

Had you already reached the age of 50 in the late 1980s? Seems rather unlikely, from the rest of your input on this thread. I wonder if what you received was a refund of your own contributions because you left with less than 5 years of pension scheme membership. Many schemes had a minimum joining age and/or minimum period of employment before you became eligible to join the scheme, so your dates of employment aren't necessarily the same as your length of pension scheme membership.

If you left the employer before 6 April 1988, that would make sense - and the rules of the scheme may have dictated that a refund of contributions was the only option at the time. The only way you could have 'moved' the funds to your new employer would indeed have been via the old scheme giving you a refund (minus certain deductions for tax and NI) and you could then pay it to your new scheme as Additional Voluntary Contributions. If you'd asked how you could pay your old into your new pension, then they weren't giving advice; they were simply telling you the facts (assuming a transfer payment wasn't an option because you quite simply hadn't been in the pension scheme long enough).

I'd guess that the amount being offered to you now by the old scheme represents something called Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP) and you are either 60-ish now (if female) or 65-ish (if male) because they didn't pay a premium to the state to re-instate you into the state additional pension (then SERPS). Does 'GMP' appear anywhere in the correspondence?

WispyMisty

FIREDreamer said:

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

This doesnt make sense. They would not have been allowed or able to pay out cash from a pension scheme to a member who was presumably in their 30’s in the 1980’s/1990’s.

Are you sure you are not getting confused with a redundancy payment or something?

How much was the payment?

How much was your deferred pension on leaving?

Thanks for your reply. 
I was late 20s at the time, I can't remember the exact amount but am waiting for further copy correspondence and transaction details. It was definitely from my pension scheme, which is why it all seems strange now looking back at it. I was just guided by them. 
Hopefully when I get the final paperwork (provided it still exists) it will shed more light on it all. 

Marcon

FIREDreamer said:

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

This doesnt make sense. They would not have been allowed or able to pay out cash from a pension scheme to a member who was presumably in their 30’s in the 1980’s/1990’s.

Are you sure you are not getting confused with a redundancy payment or something?

How much was the payment?

How much was your deferred pension on leaving?

They would if the member had under 5 years of pension scheme membership and left before 6 April 1988 - see my previous post above.

WispyMisty

Marcon said:

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

Had you already reached the age of 50 in the late 1980s? Seems rather unlikely, from the rest of your input on this thread. I wonder if what you received was a refund of your own contributions because you left with less than 5 years of pension scheme membership. Many schemes had a minimum joining age and/or minimum period of employment before you became eligible to join the scheme, so your dates of employment aren't necessarily the same as your length of pension scheme membership.

If you left the employer before 6 April 1988, that would make sense - and the rules of the scheme may have dictated that a refund of contributions was the only option at the time. The only way you could have 'moved' the funds to your new employer would indeed have been via the old scheme giving you a refund (minus certain deductions for tax and NI) and you could then pay it to your new scheme as Additional Voluntary Contributions. If you'd asked how you could pay your old into your new pension, then they weren't giving advice; they were simply telling you the facts (assuming a transfer payment wasn't an option because you quite simply hadn't been in the pension scheme long enough).

I'd guess that the amount being offered to you now by the old scheme represents something called Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP) and you are either 60-ish now (if female) or 65-ish (if male) because they didn't pay a premium to the state to re-instate you into the state additional pension (then SERPS). Does 'GMP' appear anywhere in the correspondence?

Thanks for replying Marcon
I joined in Sept 1978 and left in Jan 1987. Looking at the paperwork it does show GMP.
What I don't understand though is why, if they sent it as a refund of contributions,my new employees were unable to accept it, and why I wasn't told it wouldn't be possible before the refund was made? 
Should they have advised me to seek advice, as it certainly felt like they were merely directing me as to what to do. 
Thanks again for your input

dunstonh

Complaints to the Pensions ombudsman have to be brought within 3 years of the event or 3 years from being reasonably aware of the issue.     Both those conditions appear to have expired.

WispyMisty

dunstonh said:

Complaints to the Pensions ombudsman have to be brought within 3 years of the event or 3 years from being reasonably aware of the issue.     Both those conditions appear to have expired.

I get the three year rule, however in reality it's only now, when they're talking about me taking my pension that I actually looked at the amounts. 
That might seem foolish or ignorant but as a dyslexic with many difficult and major life issues, I'd always assumed there would be more than that amount available to me. 

FIREDreamer

Marcon said:

FIREDreamer said:

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

This doesnt make sense. They would not have been allowed or able to pay out cash from a pension scheme to a member who was presumably in their 30’s in the 1980’s/1990’s.

Are you sure you are not getting confused with a redundancy payment or something?

How much was the payment?

How much was your deferred pension on leaving?

They would if the member had under 5 years of pension scheme membership and left before 6 April 1988 - see my previous post above.

But he mentioned 9 years service earlier in the thread. No refund in such circumstances.

Marcon

FIREDreamer said:

Marcon said:

FIREDreamer said:

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

This doesnt make sense. They would not have been allowed or able to pay out cash from a pension scheme to a member who was presumably in their 30’s in the 1980’s/1990’s.

Are you sure you are not getting confused with a redundancy payment or something?

How much was the payment?

How much was your deferred pension on leaving?

They would if the member had under 5 years of pension scheme membership and left before 6 April 1988 - see my previous post above.

But he mentioned 9 years service earlier in the thread. No refund in such circumstances.

Entirely agree that the post referred to 9 years of 'contributions, but people rarely remember whether or not a scheme they joined back in the 1970s/80s admitted them from day one. The climate then was entirely different and 'waiting periods' could be five years (or more) in some schemes, with a minimum joining age of 25 being quite common.

Marcon

WispyMisty said:

Marcon said:

WispyMisty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Where did you withdraw the funds to in the late 80’s?

You certainly couldn’t, with 9 years service, take the funds out in cash.

They paid it directly to me, which is why my new employees couldn't accept it

Had you already reached the age of 50 in the late 1980s? Seems rather unlikely, from the rest of your input on this thread. I wonder if what you received was a refund of your own contributions because you left with less than 5 years of pension scheme membership. Many schemes had a minimum joining age and/or minimum period of employment before you became eligible to join the scheme, so your dates of employment aren't necessarily the same as your length of pension scheme membership.

If you left the employer before 6 April 1988, that would make sense - and the rules of the scheme may have dictated that a refund of contributions was the only option at the time. The only way you could have 'moved' the funds to your new employer would indeed have been via the old scheme giving you a refund (minus certain deductions for tax and NI) and you could then pay it to your new scheme as Additional Voluntary Contributions. If you'd asked how you could pay your old into your new pension, then they weren't giving advice; they were simply telling you the facts (assuming a transfer payment wasn't an option because you quite simply hadn't been in the pension scheme long enough).

I'd guess that the amount being offered to you now by the old scheme represents something called Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP) and you are either 60-ish now (if female) or 65-ish (if male) because they didn't pay a premium to the state to re-instate you into the state additional pension (then SERPS). Does 'GMP' appear anywhere in the correspondence?

Thanks for replying Marcon
I joined in Sept 1978 and left in Jan 1987. Looking at the paperwork it does show GMP.
What I don't understand though is why, if they sent it as a refund of contributions,my new employees were unable to accept it, and why I wasn't told it wouldn't be possible before the refund was made? 
Should they have advised me to seek advice, as it certainly felt like they were merely directing me as to what to do. 
Thanks again for your input

'In those days' advice wasn't required and very few advisers would have advised on what would have been a modest transfer value (at the time).

Once a refund of contributions has been paid by a scheme, it ceases to be a pension and just becomes 'your cash' again. Your new scheme could have accepted it had you chosen to pay in extra on top of regular contributions (these extra contributions are known as 'Additional Voluntary Contributions') and the booklet you will have been given on joining your new scheme will have explained this. That said, such booklets were hard going, especially in the 1980s, and a person without dyslexia would have struggled, so you have my sympathy!

If you were only entitled to a refund of your own contributions, then your scheme gave you accurate information (not advice) and behaved correctly. They followed their rules, and your new scheme followed theirs - both of which would have been in line with pensions law at the time.

On the other hand, if they gave you a refund of contributions when you left with more than 5 years of pension scheme membership, they were quite definitely wrong - BUT you had the benefit of the refund, which would be taken into account in any possible settlement.

The key thing to establish is the date on which you joined the 'old' scheme - information which, given there's a GMP, the old scheme should have. Once we know that, it'll answer your question about how to move forward. The Pensions Ombudsman has discretion to take cases which fall outside the 3 year time limit (although there's no guarantee they would accept your case, should the scheme be at fault) if he believes there is good cause for the delay.