Courier asking for proof I've refunded buyer?

tightauldgit

Had a message saying one of my parcels hadn't turned up, checked it with the courier and it says delivered. Person hasn't raised a case yet just messaged me on Ebay. 

I raised a case with the courier and they have come back to me and said they won't process it until I provide proof that I have refunded the buyer - but I'm reluctant to refund the buyer until I get confirmation from the courier that they will pay out of course. As it stands I have a proof of delivery but I also want to be decent to my buyer who seems honest without being out of pocket.

Thoughts? 

Surely it's none of the courier's business whether I have refunded the buyer or not - if they haven't delivered the item then that's their problem. 

km1500

it is irrelevant what the courier says 

if the tracking says delivered then you don't have to refund the buyer

if the tracking does not say delivered then you will have to refund the buyer

it's a simple as that

thus there are three possible scenarios

1.the item has been delivered and the tracking says it's delivered in which case you won't have to refund the buyer and you won't have to claim against the courier

2 the item hasn't been delivered and the tracking says it hasn't been delivered in which case you will have to claim against the courier refund the buyer and use that proof to show the courier

3. the item tracking shows as being delivered but you decide to refund the buyer anyway in which case you can use that proof as above for the courier claim

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

km1500 said:

if the tracking says delivered then you don't have to refund the buyer

if the tracking does not say delivered then you will have to refund the buyer

it's a simple as that

IIRC OP is a private seller so you'd have to look at the item value and when passing of risk occurs under the SOGA.

If it's a £10 item then, morals aside, there's nothing the buyer can do. If it's a £200 item the buyer may opt to make a claim for their refund. 

@tightauldgithow much is the item? 

km1500

these are ebay rules and practices - for better or worse 😊

no delivery confirmation - you refund or ebay will !

tightauldgit

km1500 said:

it is irrelevant what the courier says 

if the tracking says delivered then you don't have to refund the buyer

if the tracking does not say delivered then you will have to refund the buyer

it's a simple as that

thus if you're making a claim against the courier it will be because the item has not been delivered and because you have therefore had to refund the buyer and which case you can show that proof to the courier

however you say that the courier tracking says it has been delivered in which case eBay will side with you and you don't have to refund the buyer and you don't have to claim from the courier

Even if I don't HAVE to refund the buyer, if they haven't received the parcel then I would want to refund them, but i'm not going to do that out of my own pocket when I have insurance with the courier. Plus I paid the courier to deliver the item. Not to take it off me and throw it in the river and then SAY it was delivered so I can deny the buyer a refund.

Whether Ebay side with me or not is not the concern of the courier, surely? The only concern of theirs is whether they did what they were contracted to do - deliver the item to the given address.   

If they provide me with some proof they've actually delivered it then fair enough but this just seems like them making up the rules as they go along. 

tightauldgit

km1500 said:

it is irrelevant what the courier says 

if the tracking says delivered then you don't have to refund the buyer

if the tracking does not say delivered then you will have to refund the buyer

it's a simple as that

thus there are three possible scenarios

1.the item has been delivered and the tracking says it's delivered in which case you won't have to refund the buyer and you won't have to claim against the courier

2 the item hasn't been delivered and the tracking says it hasn't been delivered in which case you will have to claim against the courier refund the buyer and use that proof to show the courier

3. the item tracking shows as being delivered but you decide to refund the buyer anyway in which case you can use that proof as above for the courier claim

My concern is that while I would like to go down route 3 - I do not have any assurance from the courier that I will receive a payout if I do so. They can still go on to deny the claim even if I show them proof of the refund. They have not admitted any liability at this stage, and in fact I don't think they can have done any investigation since it was a matter of hours (overnight) between raising the claim and them asking for additional paperwork. 

it seems like they are just looking for excuses not to pay out. 

Equally if it has genuinely been delivered then I'd like to be able to show the proof to the buyer. 

km1500

you really need to look at these two things separately

either you're going to refund the buyer or you are not

second to that is whether you get any money back from the courier but the two should not be linked

The courier asking for proof is unusual but since when you refund the buyer you will have proof I would just pass it over to them

tightauldgit

km1500 said:

you really need to look at these two things separately

either you're going to refund the buyer or you are not

second to that is whether you get any money back from the courier but the two should not be linked

The courier asking for proof is unusual but since when you refund the buyer you will have proof I would just pass it over to them

They are not two separate things though. I will refund the buyer any compensation I receive from the courier. I think that's the only fair way to do it. I am not going to pre-emptively refund and then hope that the courier comes through because they've made it obvious that they will be awkward about it by asking in the first place. 

Had Ebay told me I need to refund the buyer then obviously that would be different 

Brywalker

The thing is,  you're assuming that the buyer is being honest and you don't of course know that. 

tightauldgit

Brywalker said:

The thing is,  you're assuming that the buyer is being honest and you don't of course know that. 

In which case the courier will be able to show actual proof of delivery which they don't seem able or willing to do as yet. That's one reason why I am not refunding - I have no information with which to make the decision to refund. If I refund and show the courier they can turn round and say 'here's a photo of our driver shaking hands with the recipient and handing over the parcel so no compo is due'. 

I've no issue with the courier doing whatever they need to do to check if it's been delivered or not but coming up with BS paperwork reasons not to is what I am taking umbrage at. Even if they came back and said 'we've checked and it's lost, once you provide evidence of the refund we will process your compensation' or 'we've checked and we believe it's delivered and no compensation is due' rather than insisting that I gamble my own money on their decision making process.

tightauldgit

Just for the sake of anyone else who might be in the same situation I pushed back on the courier and said I am unable to refund the buyer until I have a decision on compensation and asked that they either a) provide me with some proof of delivery or b) pay the claim in line with their insurance terms

This morning I got a message from them saying they will pay out. 

I haven't looked at the ins and outs of it in detail but it would seem logical to me that if you insure something for £X and they lose it then they have to pay out (provided you can evidence the value of the item) - I don't see that whether or not you refund the buyer and/or how much you refund is relevant. I can see an argument that they are insuring for 'actual loss' but that would also seem to be creating two tiers of protection - one for normal postage and one for Ebay sales. If, for example, I'd sent it to my brother rather than a buyer then it would have been different despite the facts being the same.