Northern Rail - Magistrate summons - Am I in the wrong?

littlelotti91

In November I was travelling to uni from Skipton to Leeds. Uni starts at 10am so I like to get a train which gets into Leeds around 09:30 to allow me time to walk to the venue. 

I booked an advanced single that morning for the 08:43 train. This was the faster train which came from Carlisle. It was announced there was a delay, and as I had to be somewhere on time I jumped on the next train which was the 08:45 train from Skipton to Leeds. 

Usually the trains are roughly every 30 minutes, as most routes are Skipton to Leeds with those stops been the start and end of the line. Occasionally the fast train comes through Skipton which is the Carlisle to Leeds route. (this was the train I had a ticket for) so every now and again trains can be 5 mins apart - on this occasion this was the case

The train I boarded was the 08:45 train. The conductor told me my ticket was invalid (even after I explained the train was delayed) and took my name and address. I received a letter with a penalty fare an option to dispute. I tried multiple times to call them but every time there was no answer (the phone had a message saying everyone was busy and then cut off - I have phone logs to prove this). I wrote to them and received a reply which I thought meant to dispute had been resolved. I no longer have this letter as once I thought it was resolved I binned this.

I have now received paperwork from magistrates asking me to pay £135 or go to court. On the principal I don't think I have done any wrong doing I am opting to go to court rather than pay a fine, with a not guilty plea.

On Northern Rails website under the conditions of an advanced ticket it states the following "5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."

I therefore don't think I am guilty of any offense. I didn't fare dodge and have my receipt from the 08:43 train I originally booked. There is a website which shows historic train times which proves my initial train was delayed. The alternative train I used was the same operator (northern rail), and there own terms and conditions indicate I could use an alternative train!

Question - does anyone disagree with taking this to court. I am worried if found guilty I will have to pay both a fine, and possibly cover northern rails court fees, and get a criminal record. Equally I don't think I have done wrong and want to stand up for myself. 

NBLondon

Did any member of Northern Rail staff at the station tell you to take the next train?  That would be a good addition to your claim.

You haven't said how long the delay was on the 0843 - if it's not a lot, Northern may argue there was no need for you to take an alternative service.  You can say you planned an arrival at 0930 - but that was to allow you to walk to uni; could you have arrived on a delayed train and taken a bus?

Do you have the text of the letter you initially sent to dispute the penalty fare?  That could be useful in court especially if it points out the T&C.  Not having the letters from Northern is awkward but they will presumably produce their copies to demonstrate that they were not accepting your explanation.  You could then try and show they were misleading (since you thought the issue was resolved).

littlelotti91

Nobody said to get on the next train, but if I waited to see how long the delay would be (20 minutes it turned out to be) I would be late. 

There terms and conditions imply its completely acceptable so I don't think anyone needed to say it was fine. Plus the train was on the other platform so to even catch it I had to run accross so there wouldn't of been time to find out. 

I have a letter from from initial fine I found tucked away in a draw but couldn't find there reply to the letter I sent them. 

But ultimately if there terms and conditions say I can catch a train, that's the authorisation to do?

Jaybee_16

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/

Conditions of use

• You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.
• If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey

  Refunds

• Your ticket is non-refundable.
• If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

Looking at the above taken from the link shown, I don't see how you could have caught the next train unless it was delayed by 60 minutes unless I'm missing something.

outtatune

Sign up and post here

https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/disputes-prosecutions.152/

There are experts on that forum who will be able to help you.

martindow

Jaybee_16 said:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/

Conditions of use

• You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.
• If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey

  Refunds

• Your ticket is non-refundable.
• If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

Looking at the above taken from the link shown, I don't see how you could have caught the next train unless it was delayed by 60 minutes unless I'm missing something.

I read the second Conditions of use sentence to apply during the trip, for example a delay to one train leading to missed subsequent connections part way through a journey.  I'm not sure that the OP can rely on this to justify using a different train at the beginning of their journey.

daveyjp

Choosing a not guilty plea at Court is always a lottery and consequences of losing can be long lasting.

You need to read and understand all the National Conditions of Carriage and present a case that due to a delay your Advance ticket was permitted for use on an alternative service.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/

 I have no idea if it does without an actual endorsement or permission from a member of railway staff.  The only time I was allowed to change services was on instruction of staff and it was due to a lineside fire closing the route I needed.

jackjones01

Did you have a northern only ticket and the next train was another operator? 

daveyjp

Carlisle to Leeds long distance service and Skipton to Leeds local service are both only served by Northern.

HillStreetBlues

martindow said:

Jaybee_16 said:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/

Conditions of use

• You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.
• If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey

  Refunds

• Your ticket is non-refundable.
• If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

Looking at the above taken from the link shown, I don't see how you could have caught the next train unless it was delayed by 60 minutes unless I'm missing something.

I read the second Conditions of use sentence to apply during the trip, for example a delay to one train leading to missed subsequent connections part way through a journey.  I'm not sure that the OP can rely on this to justify using a different train at the beginning of their journey.

Very ambiguous.
If I'm booked on the 8.43 that's the time I'm travelling (or should be)
I would have got on the 8.45  train as well

DietIrnBru

The Byzantine ticket system seems deliberately designed to keep the customer off balance. 

That Northern has the nerve to chase this and spend money - rich given it’s p*** poor performance.