Buying additional years

Laikos

Thanks pinnks struggling a bit with it to be honest.

pinnks

It is somewhat complicated and I spent ages getting my head round things because of Brexit and a fear that our accrued rights might be lost.

If you look only at your German position, then you will of course have your regular contribution record.  You can have periods of post-17 education and training added to that record (nothing to do with the EU regulations) and that will increase your "Wartezeit" and can lead to additional "Entgeltpunkte" depending on the nature of that education or training.  It matters not whether that education etc was in Germany or elsewhere, it is simply how their rules work. 

All of that will give you an "innerstaatliche" or domestic position and absent the EU regulations would form the basis of your pension at 63 (langjährig beschäftigte Rente if you have 35 years, 420 months, Wartezeit), 64+ (besonders langjährig beschäftigte Rente with 45 years, 540 months) or 66+ (Regelaltersrente with 5 years, 60 months), depending on which of those you opt to claim.  We had about 10 years in Germany and 30+ in the UK and opted for the 35-year option under the EU rules.

Then along come the EU regulations and they do the aggregation/pro-rata calculations already mentioned.  Clearly that post-17 education and training might feature on your NI record but not always, e.g. university time does not get UK NI credits.  Anyway, your entire life from 16 onwards is then listed on your Rentenauskunft with the overlaps identified and excluded.  As mentioned, periods on your German record take priority where there is an overlap.

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest asking for a Kontenklärung, informing the DRV that you want your UK record and your education and training periods taken into account, so that they contact DWP for an up-to-date position and enter correspondence with you about said education etc. This will ensure that all years like those study years are properly reflected on your German record.  As part of their response to the request, they will also send you a Rentenauskunft and it will include the innerstaatliche Berechnung (domestic-only position) and the zwischenstaatliche Berechnug (aggregation/pro-rata position), showing which will give the higher pension based on your record to date in each country.  These are long - about 30 pages - and the maths set out in them will blow your mind but the important things is to see that the record is complete from age 16 to the latest year and to get your head round how the aggregation works when there are overlaps. 

RMooli

Thanks pinnks and molerat and others for the fantastic service you are doing in helping people with this process. The phone line is impossible.

I worked in the U.K. from 1976 (full time from 1980) to 1995 when I moved to work in Ireland. I returned to the U.K. in 2018 and have been employed since January 2019. 

On my UK state pension they tell me I have 

• 24 years of full contributions
• 4 years to contribute before 5 April 2027
• 23 years when I  did not contribute enough
• Number of full years prior to April 2016 = 19
• Number of full years after April 2016 = 5

So I have 12 years where it says I can pay voluntary contributions of £824.20 per year.These years start in 2006/7 and continue to 2017/18. 

My forecast for my pension to be paid in November 2027 is £170.03 a week. 

Estimate based on my National Insurance record up to 5 April 2023 is £146.73 a week 

The most I can increase my forecast to is £203.85 a week says the Government site. 

Cope amount is £23.97

Do I need to buy back all 12 years? 

Won’t 5, 6 or 7 be enough? 

And can I claim Class 2 as I was employed in the U.K. three years before I went to Ireland and had been paying NI for some years before? 

Thanks again. Much appreciated. 

molerat

You need 10 more years to reach the max £203.85.  You can get 4 more going forward so need to pick up another 6. Pre 2016 years will only add £5.21 against the £5.82 for a post 2016 year so you would likely need 7 back years to get there.  You should be able to pay class 2 for your years working in Ireland.  Someone else will comment on that point.

pinnks

I agree with molerat that you should be able to pay Class 2 for the years you were in Ireland as long as you were working in the UK until you left and worked in Ireland, in addition to the 3 years point you already made.  I assume you have read the NI38?

I don't think the NI record can deal with the possibility of a person paying Class 2 while abroad, which is why it defaults to Class 3 but if you complete the CF83 and get it to HMRC before 31 July, selecting Class 2, ticking box 25 and leaving the bank details blank, then your position is protected.  In a covering letter, say you will settle for Class 3 if you do not qualify for Class 2.

HMRC will then send a schedule of years and amounts, and the date by which you would need to pay to keep those years and amounts.  That schedule should accord with what molerat has said above...

RMooli

Many thanks both for your detailed and speedy responses. Will be back with my wife’s details at some point too. Much appreciated. 

eastcorkram

RMooli said:

Thanks pinnks and molerat and others for the fantastic service you are doing in helping people with this process. The phone line is impossible.

I worked in the U.K. from 1976 (full time from 1980) to 1995 when I moved to work in Ireland. I returned to the U.K. in 2018 and have been employed since January 2019. 

On my UK state pension they tell me I have 

• 24 years of full contributions
• 4 years to contribute before 5 April 2027
• 23 years when I  did not contribute enough
• Number of full years prior to April 2016 = 19
• Number of full years after April 2016 = 5

So I have 12 years where it says I can pay voluntary contributions of £824.20 per year.These years start in 2006/7 and continue to 2017/18. 

My forecast for my pension to be paid in November 2027 is £170.03 a week. 

Estimate based on my National Insurance record up to 5 April 2023 is £146.73 a week 

The most I can increase my forecast to is £203.85 a week says the Government site. 

Cope amount is £23.97

Do I need to buy back all 12 years? 

Won’t 5, 6 or 7 be enough? 

And can I claim Class 2 as I was employed in the U.K. three years before I went to Ireland and had been paying NI for some years before? 

Thanks again. Much appreciated. 

I know they won't do a figure, as in a forecasted pension, but do you have a full copy of your PRSI contributions from Sligo?

RMooli

I do, but it’s in a file in my garage somewhere. I was going to request a new one. I think I may qualify for an Irish pension as well as I did work there for more than two decades. 

Laikos

I wasn't in Germany so I don't know the specifics of that, but it sounds like there is some fairly consistent EU wide treatment from what I've read here. As I worked for four years in another EU country it seems I shouldn't try and buy those years to add to my uk pension - is that correct? As I understand it they will either get added to my uk pension in any case or will be added to the pension I will get from the other country (s.t. some complications around which is larger and assuming I have enough qualifying years in both places)?

Is that a fair high-level summary of how things apply to the situation I'm in?

molerat

You can't add years from another country to your UK pension.  In the UK you need a minimum of 10 years to get a pension.  If you only had 6 you would get nothing but if you had years from another state that would add to your total number of years so you could use that 6..