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Are we expecting BOE to remain at 4.75% on 8th February 2025?
Comments
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"Today's UK employment data showed continuing weakening in a tight market with wages still c.3% over the CPI target."
The annual increase in the minimum wage ripples through to the levels above. To maintain the status quo. Only until time passes will the data show if the impact is inflationary. Meanwhile higher interest rates. in particular affecting those with mortgages, provides a counter balance of suppressing demand. Be no change by the BOE prior to the election result. They'll wish to remain neutral. I'd say August / September for a 0.25% base rate cut.0 -
Definitely no rate cut this month.
I don't think there will be one at the next meeting either.0 -
Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:sevenhills said:fergie_ said:The mortgage market lags slightly behind the swap markets. Swaps had been coming down - hence some small cuts - and are now creeping back up.
There is no such thing as "the historical average".
Planning on timing the market, either in terms of interest rate or value, is a fool's errand.
Which random historical average - which actually refer to different rates at different points in the past - do you think is the magic one that things will always happily sit at? Don't you think that there are other things that might also feed into the 'best' rate which can change over time?
Or is your perspective that fundamentally the economy now is the same as it was in 1750 and it will be exactly the same in 2250, so actually the rate is pointless - in which case why do any trends in it matter then?0 -
ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:sevenhills said:fergie_ said:The mortgage market lags slightly behind the swap markets. Swaps had been coming down - hence some small cuts - and are now creeping back up.
There is no such thing as "the historical average".
Planning on timing the market, either in terms of interest rate or value, is a fool's errand.
Which random historical average - which actually refer to different rates at different points in the past - do you think is the magic one that things will always happily sit at? Don't you think that there are other things that might also feed into the 'best' rate which can change over time?
Or is your perspective that fundamentally the economy now is the same as it was in 1750 and it will be exactly the same in 2250, so actually the rate is pointless - in which case why do any trends in it matter then?2 -
MeteredOut said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:sevenhills said:fergie_ said:The mortgage market lags slightly behind the swap markets. Swaps had been coming down - hence some small cuts - and are now creeping back up.
There is no such thing as "the historical average".
Planning on timing the market, either in terms of interest rate or value, is a fool's errand.
Which random historical average - which actually refer to different rates at different points in the past - do you think is the magic one that things will always happily sit at? Don't you think that there are other things that might also feed into the 'best' rate which can change over time?
Or is your perspective that fundamentally the economy now is the same as it was in 1750 and it will be exactly the same in 2250, so actually the rate is pointless - in which case why do any trends in it matter then?
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ReadySteadyPop said:MeteredOut said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:sevenhills said:fergie_ said:The mortgage market lags slightly behind the swap markets. Swaps had been coming down - hence some small cuts - and are now creeping back up.
There is no such thing as "the historical average".
Planning on timing the market, either in terms of interest rate or value, is a fool's errand.
Which random historical average - which actually refer to different rates at different points in the past - do you think is the magic one that things will always happily sit at? Don't you think that there are other things that might also feed into the 'best' rate which can change over time?
Or is your perspective that fundamentally the economy now is the same as it was in 1750 and it will be exactly the same in 2250, so actually the rate is pointless - in which case why do any trends in it matter then?Seems to say the opposite of what you were suggesting?buyers who wait to agree a new mortgage deal might see reductions later in the summerQuite a positive article, certainly not the doom and gloom you keep predicting.There is also an element of lenders managing levels of new business through these adjustments as some are struggling with demand for their products and managing to service the level of applicationsEvery generation blames the one before...
Mike + The Mechanics - The Living Years2 -
MobileSaver said:ReadySteadyPop said:MeteredOut said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:sevenhills said:fergie_ said:The mortgage market lags slightly behind the swap markets. Swaps had been coming down - hence some small cuts - and are now creeping back up.
There is no such thing as "the historical average".
Planning on timing the market, either in terms of interest rate or value, is a fool's errand.
Which random historical average - which actually refer to different rates at different points in the past - do you think is the magic one that things will always happily sit at? Don't you think that there are other things that might also feed into the 'best' rate which can change over time?
Or is your perspective that fundamentally the economy now is the same as it was in 1750 and it will be exactly the same in 2250, so actually the rate is pointless - in which case why do any trends in it matter then?Seems to say the opposite of what you were suggesting?buyers who wait to agree a new mortgage deal might see reductions later in the summerQuite a positive article, certainly not the doom and gloom you keep predicting.There is also an element of lenders managing levels of new business through these adjustments as some are struggling with demand for their products and managing to service the level of applications0 -
Here are 2 charts to consider.
1. 5y money priced around 4% which is near the middle of the c.35 year range since 1987. Not at an extreme I think we can all agree.
2. Unemployment rate. Near 4% but I hope we can also agree, it is at a low over the same period since 1987.
Why would any central banker (not politically or personally motivated with an investment in a private offshore LLP) think rates need to be cut with unemployment at historic lows and yields at historic average?
Even the M4 money supply is on an upward path again post a dip in 2023 as rates rose, chart 3. This will facilitate demand and reflects the acceptance by businesses and consumers to take on debt.
So why is GDP growth so slow? (hint: it is not Covid or Russia)
I think what is happening is a combination of 2 factors.
1. On the demand side, people are slowing spending. They are borrowing to get by (higher general prices and higher asset prices mean ppl and business need to have higher debts) but not to increase the volume of business/spending they undertake (which would generate real GDP=volumes not nominal values).
2. On the supply side, we are less productive due to the financialisation of the economy (the curse of developed countries post the maturity of their service industries); i.e. GDP has been driven more by debt and higher asset prices which have stimulated non-productive industries (financial and corporate industry pushing bits of paper and money around the economy) at the expense of productive industry (physical goods and services).
In simple terms by way of an example, combining the 2 effects:
The issue over the past 20+ years has been the reliance of govts on increasing debt levels in the economy to drive spending and asset prices higher which has stimulated speculation (or "confidence" if you prefer that term) which has driven transactions in non-productive assets; e.g. pre-existing house sales at ever higher prices.
Having strong housing turnover driven by rising prices does not build more houses and house more people (which would be productive) but it does still generate real GDP (as measured) due to higher sales revenue recorded by mortgage banks (volume of mortgage interest earned due to higher value & volume of mortgages). A buoyant housing market does generate secondary real GDP however; e.g. furniture, white-goods.
Nominal GDP is deflated by general inflation not asset inflation so rising house prices (asset inflation) does not have the impact of reducing real GDP. On the contrary, buoyant housing turnover of pre-existing houses and rising house prices does generate real GDP (as measured). On paper, the country appears to be getting richer.
The issue:
Govts have created economies reliant on debt to drive speculation/confidence and GDP growth. If asset prices stop rising and turnover falls then even the secondary industries reliant on housing turnover also begin to stagnate and will eventually lead to unemployment. Which is why central bankers tend to cut rates before they sniff this out.
The solution:
Drive turnover not based on the promise of ever higher prices but need. Cap leverage allowed in housing purchases to reduce ROI which in turn reduces monetary demand and in turn prices which brings housing affordability into the reach of ordinary people (need) rather than leveraged corporate structures hoarding wealth in offshore limited partnerships which structure to pay no UK tax.
Keep rates where they are and allow market prices to adjust volumes. Once prices fall to levels which people can afford without raising their indebtedness, they will buy and volumes can once again increase.To solve inequality and failing productivity, cap leverage allowed to be used in property transactions. This lowers the ROI on housing, reduces monetary demand for housing, reduces house prices bringing them more into line with wage growth as opposed to debt expansion.
Reduce stamp duty on new builds and increase stamp duty on pre-existing property.
No-one should have control of setting interest rates since it only adds to uncertainty. Let the markets price yields, credit and labour.0 -
"Keep rates where they are and allow market prices to adjust volumes. Once prices fall to levels which people can afford without raising their indebtedness, they will buy and volumes can once again increase."
What is happening at the moment is lower volumes in response to sellers refusing to lower their expectations (and banks down-valuing/being more cautious who they lend to) ?0 -
ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:ReadySteadyPop said:Hoenir said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:BarelySentientAI said:ReadySteadyPop said:sevenhills said:fergie_ said:The mortgage market lags slightly behind the swap markets. Swaps had been coming down - hence some small cuts - and are now creeping back up.
There is no such thing as "the historical average".
Planning on timing the market, either in terms of interest rate or value, is a fool's errand.
Which random historical average - which actually refer to different rates at different points in the past - do you think is the magic one that things will always happily sit at? Don't you think that there are other things that might also feed into the 'best' rate which can change over time?
Or is your perspective that fundamentally the economy now is the same as it was in 1750 and it will be exactly the same in 2250, so actually the rate is pointless - in which case why do any trends in it matter then?0
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