NHS Pension

german_keeper

saucer said:

Flugelhorn said:

fair enough! The NHSBSA can be a bit unhelpful sometimes - in the depths of their website they produce the tables by month (I've linked them in an earlier post)  - the actual amount is about 0.4% per month early that you take the pension. I opted not to take mine early too but took it at 60 and was still working for about 15 months afterwards 

I think it is more that the people on the end of the phone are not very knowledgeable. I had a specific issue I was working through a few years ago (protection of pay) that I was chasing them for updates and they never knew what I was talking about. Nice people but not very well acquainted with all provisions within the pension, which isn’t great.

Similar to Civil Service Pensions since it was privatised. I have heard lots of anecdotes from colleagues about poor service but I don't have a problem with the people on the other end of the phone. I suspect they have no technical knowledge or training and probably on minimum wage.

My own bad experience with them was when I tried to get access to the new online portal a couple of years back. I was partially retired and in receipt of my CS Classic pension. But at the time I was in the Partnership pension which is a DC option for Civil Servants, rather than the Alpha DB scheme. Now obviously if someone had been in Partnership throughout their career they wouldn't have access to the portal because MyCSP wouldn't be responsible for their pension, the DC provider would be. So the MyCSP guidance correctly said that members of Partnership couldn't have portal access. What I couldn't get across to 3 or 4 different people across a couple of calls was that as well as being a member of Partnership I was also a Civil Service Classic pensioner and therefore entitled to access my account via the portal. I did eventually manage to talk to a manager who got it straight away, apologised profusely and sorted out my access. 

jonnydeppiwish!

Stubod said:

Mrs Stubod retired at 58 but deferred her NHS pension for 2 years until 60 (1995 scheme), as we did not need the money at the time and this gave an increase in both the final lump sum and the actual pension payment. I think the McCloud ruling is more to do with the 2008 and 2015 schemes??

McCloud judgement is age discrimination against those who were under x age at a certain point so it affected those on all public service pension schemes.

Anyone over that age (I think 45 for the armed forces) kept on the same scheme so we’re not affected by this ruling.

pinnks

It's more complicated than that.  The Civil Service pension scheme (along with many or most other public sector schemes) changed in 2012 (if memory serves) and those over 50 at a certain point around that time were allowed to stay on the old scheme and retire as normal at NPA.  Others entered transitional arrangements and the rest were moved onto the new scheme.  That was challenged as discriminatory by, I think, the judiciary.  They won; the government lost.

Government now needs to unpick the whole thing.  Those who are not yet of pension age can decide (I cannot recall whether that is now or at pension age) whether to stick with the new or revert to the old for a certain period of their working life.  A solution is still being developed and legislated for people like me who are already retired.  I have not looked for a while but I think they are looking at legislation later this year, followed, presumably by revised calculations for folk like me to either stick with our lot or switch to the new and receive a recalculated pension.

Quite a mess...  

Silvertabby

pinnks said:

It's more complicated than that.  The Civil Service pension scheme (along with many or most other public sector schemes) changed in 2012 (if memory serves) and those over 50 at a certain point around that time were allowed to stay on the old scheme and retire as normal at NPA.  Others entered transitional arrangements and the rest were moved onto the new scheme.  That was challenged as discriminatory by, I think, the judiciary.  They won; the government lost.

Government now needs to unpick the whole thing.  Those who are not yet of pension age can decide (I cannot recall whether that is now or at pension age) whether to stick with the new or revert to the old for a certain period of their working life.  A solution is still being developed and legislated for people like me who are already retired.  I have not looked for a while but I think they are looking at legislation later this year, followed, presumably by revised calculations for folk like me to either stick with our lot or switch to the new and receive a recalculated pension.

Quite a mess...  

I'm glad I'm retired......

In the case of the LGPS, when we switched from final salary to CARE in 2014, protections were in the form of the 'underpin'.  Very simply, those born before 1April 1957 would have 2 calculations done at retirement.  One would be a combination of the old and new rules, and one based on the old rules only.  The old/new rules combo was then further protected by the use of pensionable pay as at the date of leaving being used in the calculation of pre 2014 final salary benefits.  Furthermore, even those who didn't qualify for the underpin also had the final salary link.

Certainly in the early days the combination of old and new pensions gave the better return in over 98% of cases, due to CARE's much higher accrual rate.  I suspect that will still be the case for many expecting a nice little windfall from all this.....

jonnydeppiwish!

pinnks said:

It's more complicated than that.  The Civil Service pension scheme (along with many or most other public sector schemes) changed in 2012 (if memory serves) and those over 50 at a certain point around that time were allowed to stay on the old scheme and retire as normal at NPA.  Others entered transitional arrangements and the rest were moved onto the new scheme.  That was challenged as discriminatory by, I think, the judiciary.  They won; the government lost.

Government now needs to unpick the whole thing.  Those who are not yet of pension age can decide (I cannot recall whether that is now or at pension age) whether to stick with the new or revert to the old for a certain period of their working life.  A solution is still being developed and legislated for people like me who are already retired.  I have not looked for a while but I think they are looking at legislation later this year, followed, presumably by revised calculations for folk like me to either stick with our lot or switch to the new and receive a recalculated pension.

Quite a mess...  

So it’s exactly as I said but you’ve just put it in more words specific for the CS?

Also, I’m pretty certain that the McCloud judgement covers the 2015 Public Sector Pension reforms and the transitional arrangements?

As for a mess, not really now, it’ll just take some time to sort through. Those who retired post 2015 after being transferred to the new scheme will be the ones affected worst, with decision notifications being the last after those who are still working.

hugheskevi

jonnydeppiwish! said:

pinnks said:

It's more complicated than that.  The Civil Service pension scheme (along with many or most other public sector schemes) changed in 2012 (if memory serves) and those over 50 at a certain point around that time were allowed to stay on the old scheme and retire as normal at NPA.  Others entered transitional arrangements and the rest were moved onto the new scheme.  That was challenged as discriminatory by, I think, the judiciary.  They won; the government lost.

Government now needs to unpick the whole thing.  Those who are not yet of pension age can decide (I cannot recall whether that is now or at pension age) whether to stick with the new or revert to the old for a certain period of their working life.  A solution is still being developed and legislated for people like me who are already retired.  I have not looked for a while but I think they are looking at legislation later this year, followed, presumably by revised calculations for folk like me to either stick with our lot or switch to the new and receive a recalculated pension.

Quite a mess...  

So it’s exactly as I said but you’ve just put it in more words specific for the CS?

Also, I’m pretty certain that the McCloud judgement covers the 2015 Public Sector Pension reforms and the transitional arrangements?

As for a mess, not really now, it’ll just take some time to sort through. Those who retired post 2015 after being transferred to the new scheme will be the ones affected worst, with decision notifications being the last after those who are still working.

The McCloud judgment only covered the move of members from legacy schemes to the 2015 scheme, as that was all it was asked to consider. However, the Govt. conceded that those who remained in the legacy schemes rather than move to the 2015 scheme ("Reverse McCloud") would also be covered by the Remedy which will be implemented by 1 October 2023 and will also be given a choice of scheme for the period 2015-22.

Hence it is misleading to say that "the McCloud judgement is age discrimination against those who were under x age at a certain point so it affected those on all public service pension schemes. Anyone over that age (I think 45 for the armed forces) kept on the same scheme so we’re not affected by this ruling." - it is literally true to say that those who remained on legacy terms were not affected by the ruling, but they are very much affected by the Remedy.

As the government conceded the "reverse McCloud" position it means that the coverage of the Remedy is all staff in post as at 31st March 2012 with service after 1 April 2015 (and possibly an additional small number of 'contingent decision' cases). All of these individuals - including all those over age 45 - will be given a choice of:

(a) Legacy scheme membership for the period 1 April 2015 - 31st March 2022; or
(b) Post 2015 scheme membership for the period 1 April 2015 - 31st March 2022

In particular, anyone who moved to the post-2015 scheme at some point between 1 April 2015 - 31st March 2022 will not be able to keep those arrangements, even if their pension is already in payment - they must choose one option or the other.

In some schemes it may be that one scheme or another will be better in the vast majority or perhaps even all cases, but in many schemes it will be a nuanced decision, with large numbers better off under each different scheme.

Those who have commenced their pension before 1 October 2023 will be provided details of their choice no later than 1 April 2025. Those who have not yet retired will make their choice when they retire.

pinnks

Thanks - put much more eloquently than my feeble attempt.  It also covers (inferred in your note) those who retired after 2015, i.e. folk like me, and we too await the post October "letter in the post" to decide what we want to do - stick with our lot, or have our pensions recalculated.

jonnydeppiwish!

pinnks said:

Thanks - put much more eloquently than my feeble attempt.  It also covers (inferred in your note) those who retired after 2015, i.e. folk like me, and we too await the post October "letter in the post" to decide what we want to do - stick with our lot, or have our pensions recalculated.

It’ll will be interesting reading as it will have been 5 years since I retired with 3 years on 2015 scheme. Would love to be able to work out whether I’d be better off on 75 or 75/15 prior to the letters