Resident's Permit Fell Down, Received PCN - Advice on NTK Appeal

Qaribbean

Goodnight all,

Similar situation to this user (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6367057/pcn-permit-fell-down-spoke-with-operative) but quick back story - I live on one of those new developments where the parking is controlled by Park PCM and residents have a permit to display on the windscreen.  There is an underground car park only accessible by residents with a key fob and the permit is only valid in the car park, it can't be used on the street level parking.  On Christmas Eve (which is irrelevant, I just thought it was harsh ) the car was parked in the car park and the permit fell off and slipped between the dash and windscreen, partially sticking out - I received a PCN.

Yes it is quite ridiculous to be ticketed in this situation but such is the behaviour of these companies and their operators, who are clearly incentivised to act this way.

Tried Plan A from the Newbies thread, spoke to the landowner (the property developers); a representative reached out to PPCM to request it be cancelled as I do have a valid permit.  Representative informed me that PPCM said no as it was technically unreadable and therefor invalid ( ) and I could still pay the reduced fee, so what would I like to do?  I asked the representative to politely decline and inform the senior management of the incident.

Looking over Plan B on the Newbies thread I've waited for the NTK which has arrived however I'm curious as to how I might need to alter my appeal, particularly with regard to not stating the driver, given that:

1) I have a permit and the car was parked in the residents car park

2) I made an "informal appeal" through my complaint via the landowner as I provided the PCN

Obviously they could've requested proof of my permit and cancelled it when I complained to the landowner but logic is clearly irrelevant to these companies so I'd just like to confirm the best way to tailor the response to the NTK without wasting time and saying "but I have a permit so cancel it please".

Thanks!
-Q

KeithP

Did your previous experiences not tell you never to give away the driver's identity?
You have even acknowledged this by saying you want to appeal 'with regard to not stating the driver'.

Then in your point 1) you tell the world who was driving.
Perhaps the first thing to do is edit your post so that your point 1) becomes something like...
1) I have a permit and the vehicle was parked in the residents car park

Coupon-mad

Well you won't win an appeal because there isn't one, not really:
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html?m=1

But send a dispute to look reasonable later if they try a small claim.  They'd be doomed.

If you move house within 6 years you must tell PCM to erase the old address because you must not risk not seeing the  inevitable pointless court claim.

And we assume you are considering moving, because no-one can peacefully live somewhere infested by a parking firm.  Life is impossible for those with cars at such estates.  Horrible scam situation, where the residents are the targets.

Qaribbean

KeithP said:

Did your previous experiences not tell you never to give away the driver's identity?
You have even acknowledged this by saying you want to appeal 'with regard to not stating the driver'.

Then in your point 1) you tell the world who was driving.
Perhaps the first thing to do is edit your post so that your point 1) becomes something like...
1) I have a permit and the vehicle was parked in the residents car park

Thanks KeithP, point taken; I was just trying to understand how best to frame an appeal in regards to the fact that given the car park is for residents only and the car has a valid permit, they will no doubt want to automatically assume I was "the driver" in this instance.

Qaribbean

Coupon-mad said:

Well you won't win an appeal because there isn't one, not really:
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html?m=1

But send a dispute to look reasonable later if they try a small claim.  They'd be doomed.

If you move house within 6 years you must tell PCM to erase the old address because you must not risk not seeing the  inevitable pointless court claim.

And we assume you are considering moving, because no-one can peacefully live somewhere infested by a parking firm.  Life is impossible for those with cars at such estates.  Horrible scam situation, where the residents are the targets.

Would you recommend just using the template for Plan B as is or attempting to get them to see some logic and highlight the validity of my permit? Again, I expect it's pointless to do the latter as if they used logic they would've cancelled when the complain came from the landowners.

And yes, we are planning to move, this is a stop gap on the journey to a property where parking one's vehicle in front of one's own house can be done freely without fear of little goblins with digital cameras creeping around at night trying to make a quick £60!

B789

What does your lease or deeds say or, just as importantly, not say about parking at your property?

Coupon-mad

Dispute it robustly, not using the template.

Here's an example I wrote earlier:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79838635#Comment_79838635

Qaribbean

Coupon-mad said:

Dispute it robustly, not using the template.

Here's an example I wrote earlier:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79838635#Comment_79838635

Care to pass eyes over this and let me know thoughts, if you have time? Thanks!

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to dispute the parking charge above on the grounds that PCM UK Ltd’s reasoning for the fine is invalid as well as completely unethical.

I have lived in the (name redacted) development for over 4 years having always had a valid permit to park in the resident’s only car park.  I pay a monthly service charge that includes allowance for my vehicle.  I appreciate there were many difficulties with parking in this development in the early years, hence the enforcement of parking restrictions, however I believe any reasonable person would agree that your operators and your business continuously blur the line between enforcing parking rules and aggravating residents.

Your parking charge was issued on the vehicle while it was parked in the residents only car park, with a valid permit.  Your grounds state:

“Displaying a tampered/copied/unreadable permit hence invalidating the permit.”

My permit had become unstuck from the windscreen and fallen between the glass and dashboard; your operator was able to see enough of the permit sticking out as a picture of it was provided in your evidence.  I will explain why I believe your grounds are unreasonable and unethical.

1. The permit was neither tampered or copied; residents are vary aware that your operators patrol the car park at  random hours hence to even attempt to display a falsified permit would be inviting a parking charge, based on your reasoning.  Obviously you’re aware that the permit contains a hologram, which would not be viewable on a copied permit.  Therefore you can assume that a valid permit would have been in the vehicle.
   
   
2. The permit was not missing, it had fallen, as seen by your operator’s own photo.  Again, if it was originally on full display, it would’ve been a valid permit as to display fake or incorrect permit knowingly would be inviting a charge.  Once again, you can assume that a valid permit would’ve been on the vehicle.
   
   
3. Now, if the lettering on the permit was unreadable, not due to it being damaged but because it was obscured, that does not logically invalidate the permit.  If the permit can be seen, but not clearly read, it cannot be assumed that it is invalid.  You have every right to ask that I provide evidence of my permit.  I stated I had a valid permit when I complained through (Land owner's name), you made no attempt to ask me to prove the validity of my permit.  I will save you the trouble of requesting evidence as I have attached a photo.

Further to this, I would like to raise the issue with you not having a record of all vehicles belonging to residents and registered to the permit.  I was made aware by another member of our Residents Association that you also control parking in the neighbouring development, (name redacted).  A member of their resident's association there informed me of the procedure of you issuing the permits and having a registration of all resident vehicles for whom the permit has been issued to.  Residents in our development are required to register their vehicle with the management hence you have the ability to crosscheck for residents vehicles.  Doing so would allow you to ensure that you don’t accidentally apply a charge to valid vehicles, however your refusal to do this can only come across as an attempt to potentially entrap residents and extort money from them.  

As stated previously, the residents here pay a very healthy service charge which includes maintenance and security of the development as well as the right to park in the resident’s car park - to be issued a further charge because you have failed to put procedures in place to protect residents from your parking restrictions is a complete slap in the face.  Again, I raise the point than when initially presented with the request from (Land owner's name) to cancel this charge, you made no attempt to ask me for proof but simply expected me to hand over money to you even though I already pay to have the right to park here.

I’m calmly requesting that you cancel this charge and I would also advise that you reconsider your strategy around the validity of obscured permits.

I’ll now state that if PCM UK Ltd think they have a cause of action, then go straight to court stage.  Please do not waste my time or your time and money by engaging with a debt collector to send demands.  Do not string the matter out for months unnecessarily.  I assure you that this will not go in your favour and we will all have wasted a day in court and you will have spent money to be told by a reasonable and ethical Judge, that you need only apply more logical sense in these matters.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Coupon-mad

Tell them you will not engage with the so-called IAS, which is considered a kangaroo court.  It would fit nicely in that penultimate paragraph.

B789

B789 said:

What does your lease or deeds say or, just as importantly, not say about parking at your property?

You haven't answered this question. What does your lease/freehold say about parking? How long have you lived at the address and was the parking scammer introduced before or after you moved in?

You may want to check other threads where being ticketed in your own parking space have very winnable defences based on supremacy of contract? It is vitally important that you go over your lease/freehold for anything it mentions about parking. Equally important is what it doesn't say about parking. Think this through!

If your lease/freehold doesn't mention anything about having a permit to park in your owned or allocated space, then what right do you think that some scummy private parking company has the right to override your lease with their terms and conditions?

Qaribbean

B789 said:

B789 said:

What does your lease or deeds say or, just as importantly, not say about parking at your property?

You haven't answered this question. What does your lease/freehold say about parking? How long have you lived at the address and was the parking scammer introduced before or after you moved in?

You may want to check other threads where being ticketed in your own parking space have very winnable defences based on supremacy of contract? It is vitally important that you go over your lease/freehold for anything it mentions about parking. Equally important is what it doesn't say about parking. Think this through!

If your lease/freehold doesn't mention anything about having a permit to park in your owned or allocated space, then what right do you think that some scummy private parking company has the right to override your lease with their terms and conditions?

Apologies for the delay. I'm a tenant so the permit belongs to the landlord but it's provided to me for use; as mentioned earlier, this is a stop gap for us, we wouldn't consider buying here and the parking situation is a primary reason! 

I believe that none of the properties on this development (flats or houses) are sold freehold, all lease.  The car park in question is a free-for-all, as long as you have a permit you can park where you wish, there are no designated spaces; even the accessible bays are used by non-blue badge holders and the parking firm operators don't ticket them as it is "only a suggestion"! This came to the surface in my first dispute with them when I provided photos of 10 vehicles in the bays without badges and none were ticketed!

I'm close with the head of the resident's association and having lived here from the opening of the development he explained that prior to the parking firm there were no double yellow lines on the road as there are now and the car park wasn't built yet so the parking was extremely hectic; the parking firm took over a year later (one year prior to my arrival).

The fact that one is unable to park freely in front of one's own house or to be able to invite friends over without them having to have to pay for parking as if they are in a bloody supermarket car park is a primary deterrent for me!