Pensions take a hit

[Deleted User]

IAMIAM said:

Deleted_User said:

Would be nice to see a sprinkle of factual information every now and then.  For example: average wages in the public sector are 7% higher. 

Well all you have to do is read all the major news articles 'owned' by the state and then yes, 7% is clearly factual 

Well, that’s just a factual number according to the Office of National Statistics. Primary source.  See Figure 1. 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/publicandprivatesectorearnings/2019

Their latest available dataset is from 2019 and the trend has been for the total pay premium over private sector to become less pronounced over time.  Its possible (likely?) that the gap has decreased in the last 3 years but the Office didn’t issue a new report.  

Articles can spin all they like but I find knowing raw numbers and facts quite helpful before one starts interpreting.

SouthCoastBoy

Looks as if you need to be earning around 45k before paying 10% contributions in nhs https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/member-hub/cost-being-scheme

And teachers around 46k,https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/employers/managing-members/contributions/calculating-contributions.aspx, although not everyone in the classroom is on the teachers pension I.e teaching assistants, they are in the lgps scheme

Prism

Deleted_User said:

IAMIAM said:

Deleted_User said:

Would be nice to see a sprinkle of factual information every now and then.  For example: average wages in the public sector are 7% higher. 

Well all you have to do is read all the major news articles 'owned' by the state and then yes, 7% is clearly factual 

Well, that’s just a factual number according to the Office of National Statistics. Primary source.  See Figure 1. 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/publicandprivatesectorearnings/2019

Their latest available dataset is from 2019 and the trend has been for the total pay premium over private sector to become less pronounced over time.  Its possible (likely?) that the gap has decreased in the last 3 years but the Office didn’t issue a new report.  

Articles can spin all they like but I find knowing raw numbers and facts quite helpful before one starts interpreting.

Its an interesting report. Worth noting that employer pension contributions are included which maybe explains why on the face of it public sector workers appear to have lower pay but it is higher after the relatively large employer contributions. The public sector also employs a larger number of  highly skilled workers, although that is the area that the private sector wins with a better overall package.

IAMIAM

The public sector pensions should just be one big pot in my opinion. 
Why is it that civil service pensions (ie alpha and every politician) is allowed to pay the least amount in amongst ALL government pensions and have the best accrual rate amongst ALL government pensions. Yet police, teachers and nurses have to pay a lot more in and have a worse acrual rate. Surely its ALL public service. 

kinger101

IAMIAM said:

The public sector pensions should just be one big pot in my opinion. 
Why is it that civil service pensions (ie alpha and every politician) is allowed to pay the least amount in amongst ALL government pensions and have the best accrual rate amongst ALL government pensions. Yet police, teachers and nurses have to pay a lot more in and have a worse acrual rate. Surely its ALL public service. 

But the civil service need better pensions.  Beng upper middle class, they need the finest wines with dinner. Nurses and fireman are satisfied with lambrini or brown ale.

[Deleted User]

Prism said:

Deleted_User said:

IAMIAM said:

Deleted_User said:

Would be nice to see a sprinkle of factual information every now and then.  For example: average wages in the public sector are 7% higher. 

Well all you have to do is read all the major news articles 'owned' by the state and then yes, 7% is clearly factual 

Well, that’s just a factual number according to the Office of National Statistics. Primary source.  See Figure 1. 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/publicandprivatesectorearnings/2019

Their latest available dataset is from 2019 and the trend has been for the total pay premium over private sector to become less pronounced over time.  Its possible (likely?) that the gap has decreased in the last 3 years but the Office didn’t issue a new report.  

Articles can spin all they like but I find knowing raw numbers and facts quite helpful before one starts interpreting.

Its an interesting report. Worth noting that employer pension contributions are included which maybe explains why on the face of it public sector workers appear to have lower pay but it is higher after the relatively large employer contributions. The public sector also employs a larger number of  highly skilled workers, although that is the area that the private sector wins with a better overall package.

Right. Employer pension contributions make an important component.

What isn’t included is risk.  If a Civil Servant’s pension liability exceeds provisions then a shop assistant from ALDI gets to pick up the bill.  Very cool. And sneaky.  One has to admire Humphrey’s ingenuity. 

Universidad

IAMIAM said:

The public sector pensions should just be one big pot in my opinion. 
Why is it that civil service pensions (ie alpha and every politician) is allowed to pay the least amount in amongst ALL government pensions and have the best accrual rate amongst ALL government pensions. Yet police, teachers and nurses have to pay a lot more in and have a worse acrual rate. Surely its ALL public service. 

Police and Fire Service get earlier NPA than Civil Service by a long way, and that's expensive. And there's arguably a reason why they retire earlier. Turns out one size does not fit all!

Deleted_User said:

What isn’t included is risk.  If a Civil Servant’s pension liability exceeds provisions then a shop assistant from ALDI gets to pick up the bill. 

Public sector pay rises have been in the toilet for nearly 15 years because the country bailed out the banks.

Don't give me a line about the private sector absorbing the public sector's risk. I've literally spent my whole career paying off the private sector's profligacy.

IAMIAM

Universidad said:

IAMIAM said:

The public sector pensions should just be one big pot in my opinion. 
Why is it that civil service pensions (ie alpha and every politician) is allowed to pay the least amount in amongst ALL government pensions and have the best accrual rate amongst ALL government pensions. Yet police, teachers and nurses have to pay a lot more in and have a worse acrual rate. Surely its ALL public service. 

Police and Fire Service get earlier NPA than Civil Service by a long way, and that's expensive. And there's arguably a reason why they retire earlier. Turns out one size does not fit all!

Deleted_User said:

What isn’t included is risk.  If a Civil Servant’s pension liability exceeds provisions then a shop assistant from ALDI gets to pick up the bill. 

Public sector pay rises have been in the toilet for nearly 15 years because the country bailed out the banks.

Don't give me a line about the private sector absorbing the public sector's risk. I've literally spent my whole career paying off the private sector's profligacy.

Well let them work until 65 then, clearly as a society we must believe they are still effective at 65 having worked since 21 at the end of a 999 call. 

IAMIAM

Bailed out the banks? I am sick of hearing this too, we've moved on since 2008! As have the pockets of a lot of people in embroiled in government contracts 

Grumpy_chap

Albermarle said

Regarding comparing yourself with others, there are a lot of different figures floating around for the size of an average pot, depending on how it is measured. However I think there was recently an article in the DT saying the average pension pot for someone between 55 and 65 was £37,600. I do not know whether that includes DB pensions or not.

Any reference to average pension pot seems meaningless to me if expressed in absolute terms as a far more appropriate references would be to age and average pension pot as a fraction / multiple of year's salary.

If, however, the average pension pot (total) for those nearing retirement is under £40k, then we will see the average pensioner returning back to work.
What does that average figure really mean though?  If the average pension pot is under £40k (total) at the final decade before retirement, that is quite different to the average pension pot being valued at <£40k, but individuals having several of these pots accrued through successive employments and never actually taking the management action to bring the pots together.

As you allude to, value of DB pensions is an entirely different thing and there never is a pot as such for the individual.