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  • Solarchaser
    Solarchaser Posts: 1,698 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    We just spent £500 today to insulate the area immediately above our main entrance door. 100mm rockwool everywhere + 100mm insulation between rafters (pictured) + expanding foam in all the gaps. As it turns out, this area was hollow, lacking any insulation and was externally facing, essentially acting as a cold air funnel into the front mid level flooring of our semi-detached. That small part of the house was always freezing. 

    Was it worth it? Who knows....but the shower room immediately above is no longer unbearable and the adjacent rooms  feel less cold and damp. The Viessmann is modulating even lower than before, so perhaps it will be one day. Today however, the home is definitely more comfortable.




    If you have fitted the pir yourself, you have left a 50mm gap between the pir and the roof right?
    For air to flow over the roof and ward off any condensation build up?

    If you are not sure what I mean look up interstitial condensation. 
    A cold roof needs to breath.
    I've been looking into this as part way through converting the loft
    West central Scotland
    4kw sse since 2014 and 6.6kw wsw / ene split since 2019
    24kwh leaf, 75Kwh Tesla and Lux 3600 with 60Kwh storage
  • Solarchaser
    Solarchaser Posts: 1,698 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Magnitio said:

    I would suggest buying/renting a thermal imaging camera to identify where you're losing heat.

    I'd agree with this suggestion. 
    Mrs had noted a small patch of damp on bathroom ceiling and so I initially berated the family about putting on extractor fans or opening bathroom window after bath /showers.
    However thermal camera yesterday told me a different story.


    Obviously the insulation above that part of the bathroom has not been pushed all the way over to the eves of the house
    West central Scotland
    4kw sse since 2014 and 6.6kw wsw / ene split since 2019
    24kwh leaf, 75Kwh Tesla and Lux 3600 with 60Kwh storage
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,363 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 7 December 2022 at 4:54PM
    ABrass said:
    If you retrofit to Passivehaus standard your heating bill will be virtually zero. Solar gain and the heat of people in the house balance loss to the outside world.
    Hi
    Exactly ...... a good proportion of our heat load is delivered through solar gain, the high levels of insulation slow the heat loss process & the thermal mass acts to regulate temperature over time so that the time between periods of solar gain or other heat provision can vary considerably without too much impact ....
    As mentioned a couple of days ago, we were expecting a few days of sun to arrive today, so didn't panic & run heat sources to compensate for the recent dull weather ... as expected it's arrived, so the heat pump is running at full tilt to help recharge the thermal mass ....
    We're not passivhaus standard, but do meet some of the main energy criteria ...
    HTH - Z

    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,363 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 7 December 2022 at 2:57PM
    My Zeup, 6 kWh's seems an incredibly low import figure for this time of year, ours has been closer to 35! Presumably consumption has been somewhat higher! Only, with Solar generation being rather limited this time of year, I wonder if it's solely down to air tightness/insulation or if you've another energy source making a contribution aside from that of the grid?
    Hi
    Consumption is higher, annual variation in imports tends to reflect the insolation and/or temperature ... eg  past five years of December electricity imports average 5.5kWh/day with the range being from 5.1kWh(2019) to 6.1kWh last year (2021) .... November this year was 4.4kWh/day ... if you think that's wild, consider the fact that we used almost 15x more gas in December 2008 than last December (2021), which in itself was ~80% higher than the lowest for a December (2016)! .... that's the advantage of data - it gives you a set of baselines to measure something against, which goes back to the saying ... you can't improve what you don't measure ...  ;)
    HTH - Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Solarchaser
    Solarchaser Posts: 1,698 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Magnitio said:

    I would suggest buying/renting a thermal imaging camera to identify where you're losing heat.

    I'd agree with this suggestion. 
    Mrs had noted a small patch of damp on bathroom ceiling and so I initially berated the family about putting on extractor fans or opening bathroom window after bath /showers.
    However thermal camera yesterday told me a different story.


    Obviously the insulation above that part of the bathroom has not been pushed all the way over to the eves of the house
    That is worth looking into!! I know there were a couple of spots that need attention over our bedroom and lounge - they had little sunken spotlights and the builders (both part of the extension) had left a gap in the loft insulation. I had planned to crawl around the loft checking for this, but this looks like a much easier way of doing it!! 

    Where did you get hold of the thermal camera?
    Luckily for me, my work gave them to the engineers a few years ago.
    It's an attachment that clips onto your phone,  it's called flir one
    West central Scotland
    4kw sse since 2014 and 6.6kw wsw / ene split since 2019
    24kwh leaf, 75Kwh Tesla and Lux 3600 with 60Kwh storage
  • chris_n
    chris_n Posts: 626 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 500 Posts Name Dropper
    £221 on Amazon
    Living the dream in the Austrian Alps.
  • EricMears
    EricMears Posts: 3,274 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    I - and several other MSE posters - was lent such a camera earlier this year.

    Not sure if they're still running the scheme : https://octopus.energy/blog/flir-thermal-cameras is saying "November 22 update: The application to loan our thermal cameras is now closed. We are now working super hard to get cameras out to the as many of you as possible" but it's not entirely clear whether that's a temporary suspension or scheme has finished.

    NE Derbyshire.4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).24kWh of Pylontech batteries with Lux controller BEV : Hyundai Ioniq5
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,363 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    zeupater said:
    Hi
    Two degree drop in temperature since you got up? ... you probably need more insulation ... ;)

    That's what I'm trying to establish - based upon some of the wilder claims made on these boards it might seem that way. But I suspect a lot of people simply haven't been monitoring during cold weather.. .

    We went to bed at 11pm, putting the last log on the fire at about 10.30pm. We shut the lounge door overnight. We got up at 2pm to let the dogs out and it was 22 degrees. By the time I got up 6 hours later it had dropped 6 degrees to 16 degrees. Given that it was -3 overnight I don't think this is bad. Obviously it's going to drop more rapidly once you get up as the lounge door is being opened with people coming in and out. The house is only 20 years old and was well insulated for it's time. There are no draughty windows etc. There is no low hanging fruit. I'm curious to hear from people in similar climates to mine with a similar sized bungalow - but with more modern standards of insulation. How quickly to their rooms cool when all heat sources have been removed?

    We're heating a large, 4 bed, 2 lounge bungalow - in Scotland - using ONLY a 3kw log  burner. The whole house is kept warm with temps in the 20's in the main living areas. You couldn't do that if insulation was poor. 

    I'm trying to establish how good things can get with optimal levels of insulation. I'm doubtful it's worth throwing money at more insulation. But interested to hear real world examples from others.
    Hi
    We monitor in hot weather, cold weather, mild weather, cool weather ... we monitor temperatures, consumption, insolation and have done so since before the turn of the century ... as for your 6C temperature differential in the main living space over a few hours, well that's to be expected if the heat is being allowed to fluctuate with using doors as heatflow baffles by opening/closing them ... that's what we do, however, the main issue is changes in the core temperature of the property and that's what becomes apparent over time if you're monitoring it.
    The easiest way to achieve this would be to take a thermostat reading in a none-elevated heat area (somewhere like a hallway) at a similar time each day, that way you're smoothing the peaks and not considering heat drifting away from the main living/heated areas and around the home as pure losses as it's not, it's doing exactly what you're allowing it to do by opening the doors ... If it's minus a lot overnight our hallway stat might show a 0.5C difference, but rarely more than that ...      
    Regarding ... "We're heating a large, 4 bed, 2 lounge bungalow - in Scotland - using ONLY a 3kw log  burner. The whole house is kept warm with temps in the 20's in the main living areas. You couldn't do that if insulation was poor. " ... very good, for comparison, we have an 8kW log burner which was last use about a month ago, and now the sun has dropped, we are currently using a total of 360W of electricity to power the house & provide ~1.2kW.t of heat provision ... The house has an insulated loft area of around 200sqm, so that would likely compare to that of a large 4bed bungalow, but we have 2 storeys .... so as a direct comparison any difference in scale shouldn't be an issue, so if you're effectively saying 'mine is bigger than yours' to exclude any form of comparison, you're probably wrong ...  ;)  
    You mention .... "I'm trying to establish how good things can get with optimal levels of insulation. I'm doubtful it's worth throwing money at more insulation. But interested to hear real world examples from others" ... so, sitting in a property with near-optimal levels of insulation to an extent that it complies with a number of criteria required for by passivhaus approval, that's exactly what I'm doing, dispelling the doubts from the viewpoint of a real world example .... if you have a large roof, you should consider looking at your current levels of loft insulation, if your 20 year old property conforms to standards applicable to prior to the 2002 changes, it'll likely have a loft u-value of 0.25, if not it should be u-0.2 it's definitely still low hanging fruit .... even if it conforms to current regulations (u-0.17/250mm thickness), the size of the insulated area involved will probably mean that it makes sense to stop applying emotions, guesswork & hunches and at least do the calculations as it could still be considered as a low hanging fruit ...
    Consider that we went from 100mm to 300mm in 2007/2008 (higher than building standards) and still could cost justify expenditure (against future energy savings) on taking the insulation to 500mm just a year-or-so later, which is now still double current new build requirements ... and there are additional measures above this which have also been taken ...
    HTH - Z

    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Screwdriva
    Screwdriva Posts: 1,294 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary Name Dropper Photogenic
    If you have fitted the pir yourself, you have left a 50mm gap between the pir and the roof right?
    For air to flow over the roof and ward off any condensation build up?

    If you are not sure what I mean look up interstitial condensation. 
    A cold roof needs to breath.
    I've been looking into this as part way through converting the loft
    This isn't our roof. It's the archway above the entrance to our property and is located below the first floor's flooring. It was previously hollow, funneling cold air continually through the first floor's supporting joists. This led to the front 20% of the house feeling frigid on colder days. This has since greatly reduced. 

    That said, yes, there is an air flow passage to avoid any condensation.
    -  10 x 400w LG + 6 x 550W SHARP BiFacial Panels + SE 3680 HD Wave Inverter + SE Optimizers. SE London.
    -  Triple aspect. (22% ENE/ 33% SSE/ 45% WSW)
    -  Viessmann 200-W on Advanced Weather Comp. (the most efficient gas boiler sold)

    Feel free to DM me if I can help with any energy saving!
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,363 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    zeupater said:
    ABrass said:
    If you retrofit to Passivehaus standard your heating bill will be virtually zero. Solar gain and the heat of people in the house balance loss to the outside world.
    Hi
    Exactly ...... a good proportion of out heat load is delivered through solar gain, the high levels of insulation slow the heat loss process & the thermal mass acts to regulate temperature over time so that the time between periods of solar gain or other heat provision can vary considerably without too much impact ....
    As mentioned a couple of days ago, we were expecting a few days of sun to arrive today, so didn't panic & run heat sources to compensate for the recent dull weather ... as expected it's arrived, so the heat pump is running at full tilt to help recharge the thermal mass ....
    We're not passivhaus standard, but do meet some of the main energy criteria ...
    HTH - Z

    So you've gone down this route? How much did it cost you?

    Also, what type of home do you have (detached, house, bungalow, semi etc) and what part of the country do you live in? So for example, big difference between South of England climate and Scotland.

    Here's a rough spec outlying what you need to fork out for in order to achieve this virtually zero heating bill (theoretically). What is the break even point (especially if your heating is free due to abundant supply of firewood):

    "

    How to achieve the Passivhaus Standard in the UK

     To achieve the Passivhaus Standard in the UK typically involves:

    • very high levels of insulation
    • extremely high performance windows with insulated frames
    • airtight building fabric
    • 'thermal bridge free' construction
    • a mechanical ventilation system with highly efficient heat recovery"
    Hi
    Covered most of your points in various recent posts, but as mentioned, we don't comply with the strict requirements of passivhaus, but do meet some significant aspects regarding energy requirements, so it's effectively irrelevant, especially so as we're discussing the justification of energy efficiency improvements based on cost & return ...
    As for location, well that's moot ... you may live north of many reading this thread, but as you've already mentioned, you're in a relatively mild area ... for example, if you're anywhere near South Ayrshire then the Met Office forecast here is probably similar or cooler here than there over the next week, and that applies to the rough correlation of temperatures we've both been mentioning so far, so it's not likely a significant consideration ...
    Anyway, whatever we have improved was done well over a decade ago and you're the one asking for information whilst continually dismissing suggestions others may make ... many years ago someone gave me some advice I consider pretty pertinent and it goes something along the lines of  ... you have one mouth and two ears for a reason, could it be that it's generally considered to be twice as important to listen than it is to speak? ... 
    HTH - Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
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