New Car PCP - Agreed February, Car Delivered, Dealer now insisting on New % Rate Set at Huge Cost.

macman

MrFrugalFever said:

macman said:

It's not a case of a finance offer being withdrawn. My understanding is that the OP has a signed, binding finance agreement at x%. Either there is a get-out clause in that contract, or there isn't. 
Checking that contract should take 10 minutes, so why all the speculation and discussion of unprecedented economic circumstances etc?
If it's watertight, the finance company has to take the hit. In the meantime, the car is reg'd in the OP's name and sits depreciating and losing warranty in storage.

I would be very surprised if the car has been registered, or indeed the original finance documents signed.

The OP has already told us that the car is plated and siting at the dealer ready, so it has been registered. For some reason, the OP will not check the finance contract terms, or post the terms here. If they do that, this can be resolved in a moment. 
My understanding is that finance has been contracted, but we don't know under what terms.

jumeriah64

macman said:

MrFrugalFever said:

macman said:

It's not a case of a finance offer being withdrawn. My understanding is that the OP has a signed, binding finance agreement at x%. Either there is a get-out clause in that contract, or there isn't. 
Checking that contract should take 10 minutes, so why all the speculation and discussion of unprecedented economic circumstances etc?
If it's watertight, the finance company has to take the hit. In the meantime, the car is reg'd in the OP's name and sits depreciating and losing warranty in storage.

I would be very surprised if the car has been registered, or indeed the original finance documents signed.

The OP has already told us that the car is plated and siting at the dealer ready, so it has been registered. For some reason, the OP will not check the finance contract terms, or post the terms here. If they do that, this can be resolved in a moment. 
My understanding is that finance has been contracted, but we don't know under what terms.

There's no deep and meaningful reason for not sharing the document. I just don't have it easily to hand ... but will have shortly.

If you like, as lightweight and unprofessional as it might sound, it was like a hotel receipt/invoice copy at check out. I didn't file it as it did not seem greatly relevant at that moment. Now of course it's a slightly different story of course. So please all, don't go thinking it's something too deep and murky.

That said, there are still efforts to 'fix' this that seem to be going on ... at least dealership are giving the appearance that it is or seems so, the reality may be different. And of course the last thing I wish to do is inflame things by publishing details too early.

Anyway details will come. It will be a very standard and vanilla affair and I suspect water tight in favour of the finance group. 

As regards being plated. Yes it is (they even sent me a sheet of plate numbers to choose from and an app that I can wind the windows down on it and other things from 200 miles away) but I very much doubt that accounts for a great deal and that it is very easily reversed. But for sure it sits at the dealership. I've seen it and sat in it. Again I suspect it counts for little. 

But yes I will be obtaining the full and formal document shortly. 

MrFrugalFever

macman said:

MrFrugalFever said:

macman said:

It's not a case of a finance offer being withdrawn. My understanding is that the OP has a signed, binding finance agreement at x%. Either there is a get-out clause in that contract, or there isn't. 
Checking that contract should take 10 minutes, so why all the speculation and discussion of unprecedented economic circumstances etc?
If it's watertight, the finance company has to take the hit. In the meantime, the car is reg'd in the OP's name and sits depreciating and losing warranty in storage.

I would be very surprised if the car has been registered, or indeed the original finance documents signed.

The OP has already told us that the car is plated and siting at the dealer ready, so it has been registered. For some reason, the OP will not check the finance contract terms, or post the terms here. If they do that, this can be resolved in a moment. 
My understanding is that finance has been contracted, but we don't know under what terms.

Just because it is plated does not mean it is registered it means they have completed the PDI ahead of the customer picking the car up. Normally a car would NOT be registered until the finance has been either a) signed, b) funded or c) both.

De-registration is a thing but not easy and if they sell the car on the forecourt, because it has been registered to a private individual it becomes a used car under no special terms (I.e. it will not be considered a pre-registered vehicle). It is absolutely within the dealerships interest to keep this deal in bed.

The OP can confirm registration by simply doing a DVLA Tax & MOT online check if his chosen registration (if by some small chance they have registered it, the car will show as taxed).

The OP needs to confirm the below;

- At the point of order, where you made aware of lengthy timescales and the need for MBFS to do multiple hard credit searches?
- During the order, was any finance documentation provided, such as a PCCI / SECCI and Sales Agency Agreement (to be signed)
- Has any finance document been signed and returned to the dealership (PCP agreement, Sales Agency, Direct Debit mandate etc)

I suspect that due to the lengthy timescale of delivery, none of the above has occurred and therefore the OP is unlikely to have had the full terms and conditions of the agreement and as MBFS no longer run that campaign, will not likely see sight of it either. 

Perhaps the OP can put a little more meat on the bones shall we say and clarify the points above?

Grumpy_chap

jumeriah64 said:

The appeal of the PCP was of course the throw away for 4 years. A lowest monthly rate was not the driver of the decision to follow this route

As regards my means/resources, without sounding crass or rude, I can afford it several times over and to buy outright in the same manner thanks. But my liquidity or otherwise is not the point or the question. How to fund is a debate worth having. And I have with my FA who was somewhat clear on the situation.

This is about the process, the change of outcome, the limitations of the arrangement and the obligations of the parties involved.

With regard to the change of price / interest rate, the details of what is permitted will come down to the details of the agreement back at the beginning of the year.  Morally, MB should honour what was agreed before so that the total cost to the OP is unchanged even if the structure of how that cost comes about varies.

The OP is in a fortunate position that they can tolerate changes to how the total cost is structured - many new car buyers would not have the same flexibility.

Buying cash would normally be the lowest overall way to acquire the car, unless the PCP came with incentives, in which case the lowest acquisition cost is to buy on the PCP, secure the incentives, then clear the PCP loan.

Given that the OP can afford to buy outright, what I would do is:

1. confirm the original price will be honoured by MB
2. confirm that any incentives linked with PCP can still be had
3. take the PCP (at whatever the interest rate is today, or the previous rate, it will become irrelevant) if required to get an incentive.
4. pay the finance off in full.

There is just as much flexibility at four years (or any other time) with a car that is fully owned as one on PCP.

The above is rather general cheapest way to buy the car approach and does not take into any account any specific proposals that the OP may have for gaining a return on the account funds that may have been considered by the FA in suggesting the PCP as preferable.

It is quite likely that the FA is better placed to advise on the specifics about the OP's case in general agreement related terms than random strangers on the internet who do not have the same knowledge and insight to the OP's particular circumstances 

martinbainbridge1975

how much has the pcp rate gone up too? there are brokers out there who can offer more competitive rates than some main dealers 

macman

You borrowed something shy of £130k and didn't file the finance document? 'Because it was 'like a hotel receipt'? Seriously?
It should take about ten minutes to ask the finance co/dealer to email you a copy, which will resolve whether the contract you signed is binding or not.
You are dragging this out with no necessity to do so, though the suspense is admittedly gripping...

jumeriah64

macman said:

You borrowed something shy of £130k and didn't file the finance document? 'Because it was 'like a hotel receipt'? Seriously?
It should take about ten minutes to ask the finance co/dealer to email you a copy, which will resolve whether the contract you signed is binding or not.
You are dragging this out with no necessity to do so, though the suspense is admittedly gripping...

Seriously yes. Apologies but that's my world. Time is limited even if it isn't impressive. Too many balls ...  too much juggling.

But we have a lot of progress on this situation. It may prove extremely interesting for others in this position going forward.

However a couple of i's and t's need dotting and crossing before we go open source. It's not quite there. It's proven to be very interesting. FrugalFever has been on the money in almost every respect.

I will report back soon as it's wrapped up (very shortly) .... what a week!

jumeriah64

Grumpy_chap said:

jumeriah64 said:

The appeal of the PCP was of course the throw away for 4 years. A lowest monthly rate was not the driver of the decision to follow this route

As regards my means/resources, without sounding crass or rude, I can afford it several times over and to buy outright in the same manner thanks. But my liquidity or otherwise is not the point or the question. How to fund is a debate worth having. And I have with my FA who was somewhat clear on the situation.

This is about the process, the change of outcome, the limitations of the arrangement and the obligations of the parties involved.

With regard to the change of price / interest rate, the details of what is permitted will come down to the details of the agreement back at the beginning of the year.  Morally, MB should honour what was agreed before so that the total cost to the OP is unchanged even if the structure of how that cost comes about varies.

The OP is in a fortunate position that they can tolerate changes to how the total cost is structured - many new car buyers would not have the same flexibility.

Buying cash would normally be the lowest overall way to acquire the car, unless the PCP came with incentives, in which case the lowest acquisition cost is to buy on the PCP, secure the incentives, then clear the PCP loan.

Given that the OP can afford to buy outright, what I would do is:

1. confirm the original price will be honoured by MB
2. confirm that any incentives linked with PCP can still be had
3. take the PCP (at whatever the interest rate is today, or the previous rate, it will become irrelevant) if required to get an incentive.
4. pay the finance off in full.

There is just as much flexibility at four years (or any other time) with a car that is fully owned as one on PCP.

The above is rather general cheapest way to buy the car approach and does not take into any account any specific proposals that the OP may have for gaining a return on the account funds that may have been considered by the FA in suggesting the PCP as preferable.

It is quite likely that the FA is better placed to advise on the specifics about the OP's case in general agreement related terms than random strangers on the internet who do not have the same knowledge and insight to the OP's particular circumstances 

I think this is where elements of discussion appear to have jumped tracks in the wrong way but with good intention. It's not about affordability. I guess you just have to take it as red that we can afford a selection of purchase/finance options and that we chose this one. And it wasn't really about alternatives .... although open minded to them of course.

At the same time, being able to tolerate/afford changes does not mean we will be doing so. And indeed we will not be.

No, this is about terms of PCP's, procedure and changes to trading conditions.

The driver of the issue is the massive hike in % that the finance group have put into play. It's also to do with the fact (I suspect) that money has been cheap to fund and has barely changed in a long, long time. As such the 'work rounds' they have been used to using have crashed to a halt based on this huge interest increment and the sudden inflexibility of the finance group. So what worked for the last few years suddenly stopped working for them. And they were shocked when they tried to back door it. not as shocked as I was :-)

Anyway as mentioned, it appears a full solution is just about to be rubber stamped. And I don't want to abuse the goodwill and effort offered in the chain and people concerned. It should not be necessary but all the same, a significant amount of reflection and adjustment seems be in play which should conclude shortly. 

I will within that effort and flexibility share what I can without being destructive or vindictive. It is interesting and I suspect not the first and certainly not the last time it will occur or be raised on here and given the massive hike in rates after a lengthy period of clam. I've learned a lot.

So hang on in there and hopefully I can add some useful data shortly. 

I would add that 'random strangers on the internet has indeed been useful at confirming suspicions and half ideas at this end ... more in the process side of PCP and the dealings of the dealership and finance group. That came from FrugalFever. Is a good thing. 

MrFrugalFever

Thanks for your kind words, I hope you get the outcome you desire.

jumeriah64

MrFrugalFever said:

Thanks for your kind words, I hope you get the outcome you desire.

Not at all. Words of experience helped to confirm actions and words I was picking up from the dealer. And in addition filled the gaps that I had little clue with. 

It also helped give the confidence to gently challenge and push back. But I still need some double under lines before I start calling it a full result. I think this is imminent and will report back soon as I know that.

Thanks again. And indeed to all posters input.