Ooh, Time to Start Speculating About LTA Changes Again

saucer

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

SouthCoastBoy

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

DoublePolaroid

SouthCoastBoy said:

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

The issue affects people doing a challenging job (and the same one potentially for decades) who are aged 55-65 and who have accrued a generous pension. Many are therefore likely to have already considered the pros and cons of retiring. So when considering the actions of people in that position, the possibility of paying an LTA charge will tip the balance just enough for some of them to decide to retire, rather than stay on as they may otherwise have done. 

This is exactly what happened to one of my colleagues. In fact a rational examination of the reasoning he gave didn’t actually make sense objectively, but people frequently don’t make rational decisions. 

NedS

DoublePolaroid said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

The issue affects people doing a challenging job (and the same one potentially for decades) who are aged 55-65 and who have accrued a generous pension. Many are therefore likely to have already considered the pros and cons of retiring. So when considering the actions of people in that position, the possibility of paying an LTA charge will tip the balance just enough for some of them to decide to retire, rather than stay on as they may otherwise have done. 

This is exactly what happened to one of my colleagues. In fact a rational examination of the reasoning he gave didn’t actually make sense objectively, but people frequently don’t make rational decisions. 

Presumably it's also exacerbated by exceeding the Annual Allowance, with the NHS scheme now being a career average scheme, and high inflation causing high Pension Input Amounts (PIAs), which can lead to a tax liability in the current tax year.

arnoldy

Presumably it's also exacerbated by exceeding the Annual Allowance, with the NHS scheme now being a career average scheme, and high inflation causing high Pension Input Amounts (PIAs), which can lead to a tax liability in the current tax year.

Another reason why Public Sector pensions should be the same as private sector pensions - defined contribution. No " special cases" or "pensions apartheid" please plenty of people work dam hard and earn very very good money - it's not just doctors. One rule for all no ifs or buts

Flugelhorn

SouthCoastBoy said:

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

the main problem this year  is actually the AA rather than the LTA - huge unavoidable charges which in some cases are exceeding the years earnings 

ewaste

Which taxes would you raise to pay for Public Sector DC Pension outflows? you'd be changing from an unfunded system that is essentially deferred income. Toward annually pumping tens of billions of pounds of tax receipts into inflating assets more than they already are. The current system essentially result in recycling the vast majority of the money back into the treasury whereas the latter is far 'leakier'.

I don't have a Public Sector DB scheme but I can at least think about it rationally. It's a very on trend ideological position to channel even more public money into private hands though. 

You seem to be one of the posters with a specific axe to grind based on your history, fair enough if it makes you feel better. It's been suggested to you before that you could always join the public sector if all you see is fields of emerald green grass...

SouthCoastBoy

Flugelhorn said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

the main problem this year  is actually the AA rather than the LTA - huge unavoidable charges which in some cases are exceeding the years earnings 

I assume they could opt out of contributing anymore to the pension , once they hit 40k for the year,to avoid the aa charges?

saucer

SouthCoastBoy said:

Flugelhorn said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

the main problem this year  is actually the AA rather than the LTA - huge unavoidable charges which in some cases are exceeding the years earnings 

I assume they could opt out of contributing anymore to the pension , once they hit 40k for the year,to avoid the aa charges?

They could leave the scheme and in doing so lose death in service and other benefits.  It's either that or continue to pay in at the rate relevant for salary (up to 14.5%).  These are undoubtedly first world problems for those directly affected but it is a significant issue when questioning why we are struggling with so many senior clinicians retiring. 

Flugelhorn

SouthCoastBoy said:

Flugelhorn said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

saucer said:

dunstonh said:

Despite the LTA causing issues in the NHS, Labour would have a field day if it was increased.   And the twitterati would dominate the media with their lack of understanding about the issues.  So, its easier for the Government to leave it unchanged.

That LTA issue for senior clinicians in the NHS is a significant issue though.  We have a situation now where some of the doctors are leaving permanent NHS employment to retire, or worse enjoy very high agency rates, sometimes eye wateringly high (albeit this is a minority who do this).  LTA is effectively leading people to choose between working for very little benefit or alternatively retiring early.  

When you say working for very little benefit, aren't they still getting paid? My understanding of lta is if exceeded you pay the tax rebate back, is that correct? If so surely there is still a benefit just not as lucrative as before?

the main problem this year  is actually the AA rather than the LTA - huge unavoidable charges which in some cases are exceeding the years earnings 

I assume they could opt out of contributing anymore to the pension , once they hit 40k for the year,to avoid the aa charges?

Not quite that simple -  I have retired with my NHS pension so don't understand all of it and it is very complex , the key seems to be the revaluing (mainly for GPs & consultants ) which is set at CPI+1.5% so even with paying a £  in this year people could be clobbered as the growth exceeds 40K. 

And yes it is a very good pension but have seen friends with huge tax bills on money that they don't have access to as it is tied up in the pension pot for several years  yet