Old Style Off peak electricity myth or legend?

Topher

I’ve put this question on Old Style, because it relates to an old style way of thinking that I’m now questioning. 
My Mum’s (now elderly) friend and I have exchanged news and views about money saving on the domestic front for years. She had to watch expenditure in much the same way as I have had to for a long time now (I started running my own home with a family in 1983). At the time when I started paying electricity bills, there was a different charge for “Off peak”electricity so we could save money by timing appliances to run in the night, and storage heaters were much more of “a thing”. As time moved on, the Off Peak lower priced electricity became only available if you asked for a particular tariff, I think Economy 7. This meant that if you didn’t have this specific tariff, there was no difference in the cost of electricity per unit during the night or day. ( I understand there’s a further way of doing this now, called Economy 10). 
I’ve noticed a lot of people talking or writing about their ways of saving money still believe that running appliances during the night brings their electricity bill down, but having checked with some closely, have found that this is based on the belief that electricity generally costs less at night, and not all of them are on an Economy 7 tariff.
Am I correct in thinking that unless you pay a particular type of specific tariff, electricity usage costs the same whether you use it during the night or day?
Do some people still believe that they are saving money by running electrical appliances at night? And do all those people have an appropriate tariff that means they ARE saving money? 
I ask this partly because the family friend goes to some trouble to run wash loads etc. during the night, but doesn’t have any special E7 or E10 tariff and I’m suspicious that she’s wasting her efforts. - If she isn’t then I’ll get the timers back out.

CCW007

Generally on most tariffs the unit cost is the same throughout the day/night.  As you say you can get economy 7 / 10 but I believe you need a specific meter to do so, the standard old style non-smart meters don't have the capability for dual rates (as I understand it). 

There are also tariffs which you can only get if you have a smart meter (such as Octopus Go or EDF have one I think) where you have a cheap rate period which is often over night.  Then there is the experimental Octopus Agile tariff where the rate is dynamic and changes every half hour.  This was great during the first lockdown when demand in the grid dropped off and rates were very low (and even went negative at times) but is not so good now that demand is higher and renewable generation is much lower.

There is an argument that for balancing the national grid it is better to run appliances overnight when the demand on the grid is lowest and avoid times of peak demand such as between 16.00 and 19.00 every day but unless you have a dual / multi rate tariff there is no financial incentive to do so.

I am on Octopus Go Faster and have a cheap rate between 20.30 and 00.30 (2.5 times cheaper than the peak rate) every night so that's when the dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer (if I can't dry outside) go on.  

Carrot007

Yes you are right without a TOU tarrif the only people paying cheaper for the night time electricity is no-one (possibly your supplier if you provide HH readings for for settlement purposes (though I think that is just business still and even if you provide the info via a smart meter is is not used for such)).

This is no helped by the regurgitated bad articles from the gutter press that were said by some supplier boss but probably pertained to a different country. How those articles get published is beyond me, still tyhey are after click bait for ad revune so probably do not even get fact checked.

Sandtree

Back before the energy reforms each regional power company had come up with its own off peak tariff both in terms of duration, what time it was supposed to start at and how the switch was triggered. E7 was probably the most common but other varients existed. E10 is a newer creation.

Topher said:

Do some people still believe that they are saving money by running electrical appliances at night? And do all those people have an appropriate tariff that means they ARE saving money? 

I would imagine a lot of older properties will have been wired for E7 or equivalents, we never had storage heaters but did have an emersion heater that was on the E7 loop, and so will have a meter capable of supporting an E7 tariff but if people are actually getting them or choosing other tariffs is a question that probably won't be in the public domain. 

There are general benefits to the grid for high use in domestic situations to be at night and so its not the end of the world if couples haven't communicated and so don't realise they moved off from a E7 tariff. 

Topher

Thank you Sandtree, Carrot007, CCW007, Those insights are really useful to me as I explore this for my own budget adjustments. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and taking the time to respond. 

halfamo

Im just finished looking at this very thing.
Our tariff now includes a night rate which starts at 12pm till 8 am and will be 11 pm till 7am when clocks change,if I have read the info correctly.
This means one could run a slow cooker overnight or have the bread maker on during that time.
Im thinking of using the clothes dryer at night and possibly the washing machine.
We do have a smart meter though so it did't need changing, I believe if you don't have a smart meter , they charge for a meter which can take the dual price when they change the tariff.

Sandtree

Slow cooker is 150w or less (or about a light bulb in the 1970's marketing) and whilst sure you could save if you want something slow cooked for breakfast but reheating something later probably offsets the night time saving... better thinking bigger appliances 

In most E7 type tariffs your daytime rate is higher than a non-E7 so you have to be sure you can back load your consumption otherwise you'll just pay more

maryb

I have an old ‘white’ meter from years ago when we used Economy 7 but it became uneconomic because the break even point changed and even running everything possible at night we couldn’t shift enough onto cheaper rates to compensate for the higher daytime rates.  I think at least 35% of your consumption needs to be at night time rates before you save anything. So we reverted to a single tariff which didn’t mean changing the meter - we just give two readings and they charge them at the same rate

Having said that, I do still run a lot of things overnight.  As others have said, it helps to balance the grid.  It is a small thing I can do to reduce carbon emissions because a much higher proportion of night time generation is nuclear or wind - though clearly not solar!

But there are safety concerns about running anything with a heater unattended including washing machines and tumblers. Firemen go pale at the mere suggestion.  And I believe some home insurance policies exclude damage caused by fires from unattended domestic appliances though mine doesn’t seem to

Slinky

maryb said:

I have an old ‘white’ meter from years ago when we used Economy 7 but it became uneconomic because the break even point changed and even running everything possible at night we couldn’t shift enough onto cheaper rates to compensate for the higher daytime rates.  I think at least 35% of your consumption needs to be at night time rates before you save anything. So we reverted to a single tariff which didn’t mean changing the meter - we just give two readings and they charge them at the same rate

Having said that, I do still run a lot of things overnight.  As others have said, it helps to balance the grid.  It is a small thing I can do to reduce carbon emissions because a much higher proportion of night time generation is nuclear or wind - though clearly not solar!

But there are safety concerns about running anything with a heater unattended including washing machines and tumblers. Firemen go pale at the mere suggestion.  And I believe some home insurance policies exclude damage caused by fires from unattended domestic appliances though mine doesn’t seem to

maryb, who are you currently buying your electricity from please? We've got old E7 meters, and I've just found out that my supplier has bumped me back onto an E7 tarriff now my fix at single rate has finished. I'm looking at other options as they say the only way I can get a single rate it to take a fixed rate at eye watering rates.

The previous owners of this house were using a fair amount of electric 'overnight', I could see this by the readings on the meters when we bought the house. What they hadn't noticed was that the reads had been set up the wrong way round and they were paying more at night for their use than during the day.  I battled for ages to get it sorted out, but I wish I hadn't now!  We don't have storage heaters and only us a small amount of power overnight. Whilst I'm stuck in this situation, the dishwasher will be going on overnight again, and I'll be up early to do my ironing.

maryb

Oh boy does that resonate!  I've been with British Gas, Coop Energy, EDF and most recently Pure Planet.  None of them had any issue with putting me on a single rate tariff.  Then when Pure Planet went bust I was changed over to Shell.  Two problems - they had the night time and daytime readings the wrong way round so it kept rejecting new readings.  That took many many phone calls and sending evidence to get sorted.  Like you, I was tempted to leave it since I use a lot more daytime but I gritted my teeth and battled on

Second problem was they put me on an Economy 7 tariff even though I had been on a single rate.  Initially they said I couldn't change my tariff unless I had a smart meter ( which won't work because our meter is in the cellar and there is no mobile or wifi reception).  Many phone calls pointing out that it wasn't a change it was correcting THEIR error.  It has - finally - been sorted this week and the excess charges since January credited.

I would push back when they say you can't have a single rate tariff.  Shell also thought at one point I was asking for a fixed rate tariff so patient explanations were gone through again.  Energy companies have also been known to be economical with the truth when it comes to telling you that you have to have a smart meter.

Good luck!