What counts as starting work?

Sandtree

TELLIT01 said:

From my reading of the situation the OP does have their computer on and ready for work by 9am so that isn't the issue.  Everywhere I worked after e-mail came in we were told to read them before doing anything else in case anything had changed since previous working day.  If the OP left reading e-mail until half way through the day they could be in trouble for not being up to date with latest requirements.  Looks like a lose-lose scenario for the OP.

When I started working for the DWP, office based long before the pandemic, it would take up to 15 minutes to get all the PC powered up and all systems working.  No way would I, or any of my work colleagues, consider going in 15 minutes before the start of our contracted hours to cover the shortcomings of the systems.

So how does that work practically for those on the front line and first shift? You advertise that your telephone lines are open 9am to 7pm but actually no one is ever available until 9:15 to take a call and so queues from the beginning @TELLIT01

I can't say that I've ever walked into a supermarket at opening time and found not a single cashier on because they all just got to the shop for the start of the shift and are now out back changing into their uniform etc.

I'd agree with others saying that you are paid to be ready to do your job at the start of your shift and commuting, getting a coffee, logging into your machine etc is all own time activities.  In my last call centre job I'd come in to dozens of emails and letters but you get the phone on first and then look to tackle those... if anything was urgently critical such as a major policy change then your manager would actively instruct you not to go on the phones and indeed there was a code to put into the phone to say you are in a team meeting or manager briefing

TELLIT01

Sandtree said:

TELLIT01 said:

From my reading of the situation the OP does have their computer on and ready for work by 9am so that isn't the issue.  Everywhere I worked after e-mail came in we were told to read them before doing anything else in case anything had changed since previous working day.  If the OP left reading e-mail until half way through the day they could be in trouble for not being up to date with latest requirements.  Looks like a lose-lose scenario for the OP.

When I started working for the DWP, office based long before the pandemic, it would take up to 15 minutes to get all the PC powered up and all systems working.  No way would I, or any of my work colleagues, consider going in 15 minutes before the start of our contracted hours to cover the shortcomings of the systems.

So how does that work practically for those on the front line and first shift? You advertise that your telephone lines are open 9am to 7pm but actually no one is ever available until 9:15 to take a call and so queues from the beginning @TELLIT01

I can't say that I've ever walked into a supermarket at opening time and found not a single cashier on because they all just got to the shop for the start of the shift and are now out back changing into their uniform etc.

I'd agree with others saying that you are paid to be ready to do your job at the start of your shift and commuting, getting a coffee, logging into your machine etc is all own time activities.  In my last call centre job I'd come in to dozens of emails and letters but you get the phone on first and then look to tackle those... if anything was urgently critical such as a major policy change then your manager would actively instruct you not to go on the phones and indeed there was a code to put into the phone to say you are in a team meeting or manager briefing

The solution is very simple.  The start time for the shift is earlier than the time the lines or doors open to customer .  Not rocket science.

Sandtree

TELLIT01 said:

Sandtree said:

TELLIT01 said:

From my reading of the situation the OP does have their computer on and ready for work by 9am so that isn't the issue.  Everywhere I worked after e-mail came in we were told to read them before doing anything else in case anything had changed since previous working day.  If the OP left reading e-mail until half way through the day they could be in trouble for not being up to date with latest requirements.  Looks like a lose-lose scenario for the OP.

When I started working for the DWP, office based long before the pandemic, it would take up to 15 minutes to get all the PC powered up and all systems working.  No way would I, or any of my work colleagues, consider going in 15 minutes before the start of our contracted hours to cover the shortcomings of the systems.

So how does that work practically for those on the front line and first shift? You advertise that your telephone lines are open 9am to 7pm but actually no one is ever available until 9:15 to take a call and so queues from the beginning @TELLIT01

I can't say that I've ever walked into a supermarket at opening time and found not a single cashier on because they all just got to the shop for the start of the shift and are now out back changing into their uniform etc.

I'd agree with others saying that you are paid to be ready to do your job at the start of your shift and commuting, getting a coffee, logging into your machine etc is all own time activities.  In my last call centre job I'd come in to dozens of emails and letters but you get the phone on first and then look to tackle those... if anything was urgently critical such as a major policy change then your manager would actively instruct you not to go on the phones and indeed there was a code to put into the phone to say you are in a team meeting or manager briefing

The solution is very simple.  The start time for the shift is earlier than the time the lines or doors open to customer .  Not rocket science.

But is that what does happen? Everywhere I worked in call centres you had to be available on the phone by shift start so no need for it and giving the queue times at opening time with  the DWP/HMRC etc it wouldnt surprise me if they too werent having a pre-opening of telephone lines start time even if it isnt rocket science 

yksi

paycre said:

Hey. I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful input on my question. Definitely some things to think about. I wouldn’t even have asked except the nature of the email was so formal, in such a way that it makes me believe it’s laying the ground work for future action, should I not be ready again at 9 and therefore I would like to know where I stand, where as a simple conversation from them and I’ve had got the message just as well and not felt threatened. 

There are a few comments about being more flexible for the employer or more willing etc, not to quibble and whilst is theory I totally don’t disagree and this was how I was raised.  The one thing I would say is that things have really changed in the employment market and especially with minimum wage or zero hours jobs, with many companies it is no longer give and take. It doesn’t matter how much willing you show. How often you may stay late to tidy something up. They care about what the computer says and that’s it. 

I get what you're saying. It's usually the same argument from people I have supervised - they think that hey, we're all adults and this should be a polite discussion, because I'm a reasonable person and after all, I do deserve some respect, and as human beings, we are equals.

I think in a way the work world is a little bit backward in that respect. We're not all equals. People entering that workplace are expected to conform to the norms of the office. The bosses definitely call the shots, particularly in call centre work, and there are no brownie points for working hard, working extra, being reliable, etc etc etc. That's the point. There are other people who'll do the job without quibbling, so make sure you're careful, for your own sake.

In any case, I don't agree with people saying employees just don't know until they're told, because right or wrong, bosses expect common sense. If you're taking phone calls for a living, you know that customers will be sitting there waiting if you're not there to answer the call bang on 9am. Some commenters might not think five minutes is a big deal. But actually, it's a massive, massive deal in a call centre and a fail for their stats. I have had to point out that "being in the building" doesn't count as being at work if your jacket is still on and someone is standing at the till waiting. And I will admit... I had to be told the exact same thing many years ago! 

As an aside, I hope you escape that kind of work, for something you love.

TELLIT01

I accept that being in the building isn't the same as being ready for work, but if you are at your desk prepared to work and systems aren't available, that isn't your fault.  At some point there has to be a line between what is the responsibility of the individual and what is the responsibility of the company.  Does anybody think it's reasonable, if somebody's contract says hours are 9 to 5, for them to have to be there 15 minutes earlier to get the systems running?  Contracted hours should include this time so be 8.45 -

Wyndham

It's awhile since I did this, but I worked somewhere that was open to the public from 9 - 5. We were expected to be in the building at 8.45, and didn't leave until 5.15. But, we were paid for these hours.

If the business wants to be fully open between certain hours, then staff need to be around slightly outside of those hours. Unfortunately, many employers don't want to pay for the extra - and in my view they should be paying for this time.

Sandtree

TELLIT01 said:

I accept that being in the building isn't the same as being ready for work, but if you are at your desk prepared to work and systems aren't available, that isn't your fault.  At some point there has to be a line between what is the responsibility of the individual and what is the responsibility of the company.  Does anybody think it's reasonable, if somebody's contract says hours are 9 to 5, for them to have to be there 15 minutes earlier to get the systems running?  Contracted hours should include this time so be 8.45 -

Its one thing if the systems aren't available (ie they are down) and its another thing if you got in too late or spent too much time at the coffee machine and the systems are available but you just havent finished logging into them on time. 

Presumably your views are the same on the end of the day? If it takes 5 minutes to log off all your systems that you should be able to turn off your phone (or whatever your work queue is) at 4:55 to ensure you are ready to walk out the door at 5pm on the dot?

Personally if my contract says I am to work 9-5 then I expect that is the time I should be working not getting ready to work. In contact centre work in my day the phone terminal was king (I know these days there is more telephony/computer integration) and you had to be available at 9am and either available or on a call at 5pm. There were naturally tricks of the trade and people running late will log into the phone before the computer and similarly if the call enters the final stages at 4:59:01 then people start logging off, putting their coat on etc whilst still on the phone to the customer and just dread a "whilst you're there..." comment which means logging back on, remembering the customers ID or blaming the computer for asking for it again.

Some companies took it too far, BT had 3 members of staff who's whole job was watching the telephone system that flagged if someone was late on, went to the toilet more than twice in a shift or more than 5 minutes and would be at your desk with your team leader awaiting an explanation. The majority in my book were reasonable.

No company, not even BT outside of the three loo monitors, were terrible places... with all of them you could go into unavailable to go grab a drink. None stopped people preparing to leave near the end of the shift. Only one had issue with you bitching to your neighbour after a bad call rather than going straight back into available. If you add up all this time then it almost certainly exceeds the 10 minutes required to log in to be ready to do your job at the start of your shift.

kimwp

I personally think starting work is you being ready to start work and allowing a few minutes to get the equipment running before the start time, but anything longer than that is on company hours. When I was in the office, I'd find a desk and turn my laptop on, then take my coat off, go get a drink and put my lunch in the fridge, while the laptop ground to life. Then "we" would both be ready to go at start time.
If you are working from home OP and want to read your emails before picking up calls at 9am, you could do it in a way that doesn't take up personal time eg while eating your breakfast.

getmore4less

The classic example of what is work or not goes back to miners the job is  mine coal.

Does their work start when they arrive at the coal mine or 90mins later when they arrive at the coal face.

Anything required by your employer to do the job is working time even something like requiring uniforms that cannot be worn to work, you start when you are ready to put the uniform on not after it is on. 

Turning on equipment to be able to do a job is working time( They key point has been made already subject to min wage it does not have to be paid time.)

If you have to clock in, that's when working time starts at the clock machine not sometime later when you have arrived at your actual place of work.

If the requirement is to log out of systems and shut machines down(not just pull the plug) that is working time.   

kimwp

How can working time not be paid?